What is your Favorite American Beer Now and what did you like many years ago?

[jesskidden]

OK, so it was seventh, not fourth.

Well, no...

A list of the top 16 breweries in 1895 from the Brewers Guide doesn't show Terre Haute listed (while the website claims it was #7 in '92).

As I noted, I've been reading these claims for "Champagne Velvet" and the Terre Haute Brewing Co. on the 'net for awhile (not trying to pick on your specific claim- only suggest that there's incorrect info out there), and they just don't seem to agree with the written records from the era.

The massive reference book "100 Years of Brewing" published in 1903 notes that when THBC was incorporated in 1889 (not the erroneous claim of "THBCo is the second oldest active brewery in United States (est. 1837)" ) it had a capacity of about 30,000 bbl. a year- to have become #7 by 1892, they'd have had to increase 10 fold in 4 years (Blatz, with 400-350,000 bbl was #7 in 1895). The only output figures I've found for THBC in the early 1890's has them in the 30-60,000 bbl. range.

The production of ALL the breweries in Indiana was 570,000 in 1892 (when the website claims it was #7 in the US), which would mean that THBC would have had to brew more than all the other 47 or so breweries in the state combined. Just doesn't add up to me. :grin:

It's not unusual for brewers to make claims that stretch the truth, of course (see: "Miller Lite- A Fine Pilsner Beer") and I notice that many of these "reborn" brands are particularly prone to it. (Here's a article in which Jim Koch claims- or at least lets a reporter *think* - that his "Boston Beer Company" is somehow a continuation of the original, thus making his company older than Yuengling. "Boston Beer Co. started brewing a year earlier, in 1828, but took a brief hiatus in the 1970s before Koch purchased it in 1984.") I don't know, can a brewery like Terre Haute that simply uses the same name as one that closed in 1959 really be "the second oldest"?

(Oh, yeah- as far as being the "first to date code beer in 1940"- a number of brewers dated their beer- Lucky Lager, for one, were "age dated" on their labels - here's one from 1935).

[dave ziegler]

Today I have been thinking about some of the Old Coal region Beers made in Pa, Brands Like

1. Columbia,and Senator's Club & Whitman & Lord brewed by Columbia brewing in Shenandoah Pa

2. Old Dutch Brewed by Eagle Brewing in Catasauqua Pa Not coal region

3. The Ones I have had such as F&S--Fuhrmann & Schmidt brewed in Shamokin Pa

4. Kaier's One of my favorites back then Brewed in Mahanoy City

5. And around here Right in Boyertown before I was old enough to know of Beer Boyertown Pilsner & Lager I work in Boyertown!

We had so many and they are for the most part all gone now but the memory of how good they were lives on! Kaiers got a star of Excellence at a Brussels Beer Contest Back in the day!

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Beer Is Food

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[dave ziegler]

Another beer I wondered about but never got to drink was Gunther Brewed by Gunther Brewing Baltimore MD. Wondering how good it was? Also Senate Beer & Old Georgetown beer by Christian Heurich Brewing in DC which used to be right on Penna Ave down the road from the White House where the Kenndy center is now? They had a picture of the White House and the brewery on the Old Georgetown Beer Can which I have one.

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A beverage Beer Is Food

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[marco246]

My favorite American beer is Anchor Steam, although I am not serious enough about beer (only drink one or two daily) to bother to acquire this particular one. My wife occasionally gets me a 6-pack for a special occasion. Usually I just pick up whatever COSTCO has that looks interesting. Monday I bought a case of Sam Adams (mixed summer selection), one of Pyramid wheat beer, and one of Newcastle Brown Ale.

I discovered Yuengling while at Carlisle Barracks, PA, in the 90s, and then rediscovered it last week in Florida during a family reunion. This was the Balck and Tan, and it was tasty. I am told Yeungling now has a brewery in Florida.

As a college student in the '60s I swilled vast amounts of Wiedemann's. My philosophy then, as now, is that beer is only with us for a little while, and it's all good.

Cheers!

[jesskidden]

Another beer I wondered about but never got to drink was Gunther Brewed by Gunther Brewing Baltimore MD. Wondering how good it was?

Gunther must have been a pretty popular beer in Baltimore at one time - most folks usually just remember the National brands (Bohemian and Premium) and the Carling beers but both of the large regionals that bought the Gunther brewery (Hamm in the late 50's and then Schaefer a few years later when Hamm left the East Coast market and sold the brewery to the Brooklyn brewer) continued to make and market Gunther.

In fact (according to the Brewers Digest Annual Guides- 1979, 1980), Schaefer continued to brew it in their Allentown, PA facility that they built in the early 1970's(which just re-opened as the "new" Boston Beer Co.'s largest brewery) after they closed the old Gunther Brewery in MD in '78. The brand seems to have disappeared only after Stroh purchased Schaefer.

[Gillman]

Recently in Providence, RI at the bar of a restaurant, Local 121 which is linked in ownership to the excellent Trrnity brewpub, I had a glass of the restored Narragansett lager and thought it was superb. An evident attempt has been made to replicate the original recipe because while the beer has a good malty base it has I believe a touch of adjunct as well which made the beer true to style and refreshing. There was a very nice hop undertone, possible Perle or a similar hop and an interesting backgound taste from the yeast (creamy-like). A fine revival that should do great in the market. I've seen cans and bottles too but haven't tried them as yet. There is also a bock and porter.

The taste of this really did bring back memories of the best of the 1950'-70's beers that we've been discussing here.

Gary

[dave ziegler]

Gary of all the beers I have tired in the Last few years I find the New Narragansett to be as you said superb, and very refreshing to drink. It does have a sort of style of the old stuff. I liked it so much when a friend went to CT I had him bring me 5 cases back. It is rated A on the Beer Advocat and I can see why it is doing so well it is a terrific Beer!

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Beer Is Food

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[dave ziegler]

I am sitting here drinking the Last Philadelphia Lager I ever will as Red Bell went out of Bussiness and the Historic Brewery is closed again. Such a shame after being used for 58 years as a Leisure equipment plant it became a brewery again after 59 years. Sadly the owner built to many small brew pubs and lost track of his tax bills a ran out of money and it was too late. However there is one good thing I have now found out a Builder who restores old Brewery town Brewery's into town houses has bought it so hopefully the Old Poth Brewery which was built in 1864 will continue to exsist! I have put a picture of it up back farther on this thread. The Beer is a very nice typical Phila lager beer refreshing mild delightful and it will be missed. There is one brewery left in Phila the Philadelphia Brewery also in an Historic Old Brewery maker of many Micro brands and of Kenzinger a beer named in tribute of Kensington where it stands and Esslinger a great old Phila Beer!

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Beer Is Food

Dave Z

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[jesskidden]

There is one brewery left in Phila the Philadelphia Brewery also in an Historic Old Brewery maker of many Micro brands and of Kenzinger a beer named in tribute of Kensington where it stands

Well, don't forget that Yards is about to come back to production (currently some of their beers are being contracted out to The Lion- tho' I don't seem 'em in NJ). The owners of Yards split up, two of them (Bill and Nancy Barton) keeping the building and creating the Philadelphia Brewing Company, and one of the original founders, Tom Kehoe, moving on to build the new Yards Brewing Company facility.

And, Philly's got a few good brewpubs (tho', for such a great beer town, the number is amazingly small) with the former owners of NJ's late Heavyweight Brewing Co. about to open one - Earth Bread + Brewery

[dave ziegler]

Here are two pictures of my 1939 Full bottle of Poths Old German Beer, I have also kept one full bottle of Red Bell- Philadelphia Lager since they both were brewed in the same Brewery in Phila! I also kept the last case with all its bottles with Original caps same ones off twist Bottles made by someone else will make a nice displace and will only get better as it gets older like all the things from the past. I also made a Picture of the brewery to keep with the stuff! Thanks to Jeeskidding for the great news about Yards coming back there will be some good beer coming from there. And I'm glad that Philadelphia Brewing is still in its old Brewery making Kenzinger Beer and all their others! It is a shame someone did not buy the Poth brewery with all the new equipment in it and reopen it again instead of it all being auctioned 2 months ago but at least it is going to be saved from the wrecking ball. The times are to slow right now in Better times most likely someone would have bought it ready to go! I wonder How Poth Beers tasted I am willing to bet very good as the Old german name has belonged to many breweries through the years the name now belonging to Pittsburg Brewing! One last thing I do not drink Budweiser but I do not like IN Bev buying it they can no longer call in the great american Lager as In bev will now own it. I am tired of everything owned here being sold with no cares about the People who worked and made the companies great as in general out of country owners could care less how many years someone has given to doing a good job you are just supposed to go on which is very hard when you are older, I know that deal very Well!

Dave Z

Beer Its not Just A Beverage Beer Is Food

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[Gillman]

I found further information from the website of the revived Narragansett.

The beer is made at High Falls (formerly Gennesse in Rochester) under contract for the marketer. This is stated on the site and all credit to the marketer for being upfront on that, but the authenticity I noted in the taste comes from the fact clearly that the original yeast strain is being used and the beer is brewed under supervision of the last brewmaster to work at the Cranston facility before it was closed (circa-'82). This gentleman started with the original Narragansett in 1952! What a stroke of luck since with the passing of time, it is hard sometimes to recreate something from 50 years ago. This person must be around 80 I'd guess now and it is great that he worked on the beer, the results really show.

The body is quite heavy for an American international lager style, corn is the adjunct and the IBU rate is quite low (12 I think) but the results are a delicious, traditional-tasting American beer. The corn lends just that crisp touch which is refreshing. A Harpoon IPA tasted the next day seemed syrupy in comparison but actually I enjoyed both beers, they are just different. The key is both are brewed to the peak of what their style represents.

So here we have a link between the old and new operations in the form of a person who worked for the old one and knew intimately the product. Even though things change with time (old companies close or are sold like e.g., A-, this link has IMO enabled the Narragansett of today to be as good as it was in its heyday or better if possible.

Gary

[dave ziegler]

I found further information from the website of the revived Narragansett.

The beer is made at High Falls (formerly Gennesse in Rochester) under contract for the marketer. This is stated on the site and all credit to the marketer for being upfront on that, but the authenticity I noted in the taste comes from the fact clearly that the original yeast strain is being used and the beer is brewed under supervision of the last brewmaster to work at the Cranston facility before it was closed (circa-'82). This gentleman started with the original Narragansett in 1952! What a stroke of luck since with the passing of time, it is hard sometimes to recreate something from 50 years ago. This person must be around 80 I'd guess now and it is great that he worked on the beer, the results really show.

The body is quite heavy for an American international lager style, corn is the adjunct and the IBU rate is quite low (12 I think) but the results are a delicious, traditional-tasting American beer. The corn lends just that crisp touch which is refreshing. A Harpoon IPA tasted the next day seemed syrupy in comparison but actually I enjoyed both beers, they are just different. The key is both are brewed to the peak of what their style represents.

So here we have a link between the old and new operations in the form of a person who worked for the old one and knew intimately the product. Even though things change with time (old companies close or are sold like e.g., A-, this link has IMO enabled the Narragansett of today to be as good as it was in its heyday or better if possible.

Gary

Thanks Gary That is great No wonder it is so darn Good! I love the stuff and wish it was easier to get here in pa, But as long as I have good friends going up I will be able to get it and enjoy it! That also shows the Value of an older person who knows what it should be like and creates it that way. Three Cheers to the Owners of Naaragansett for taking that Important step no wonder it is selling so well! Our Own Reading Premium Beer is starting to take off now it is going so good they are having High falls now put it in cans for them. And The Loin is still doing bottles for them till things get good enough that they can do what their dream is and build their Own Large Brewery to have besides their Micro Brewery in Reading! If you can ever get some Gary try it! They have done the same thing as far as Cans and bottles using the past to help the future with the retro design. They also are friends with some of the old reading Brewing people brewmasters ect and I would not be surprised it they did not get some help there. If you want to see there site it is Under Reading brewing or Reading Premium Beer. Or Under Legacy brewing.

Narragansett has become again one of My very Favorite Beers and I Highly recomend any one Reading this to give it a try. Again Gary Thanks for your Insight into all these things you always find the Best things! Also if you go on the Reading Beer site they tell about the history and why they bought the Name back and started it again. I talk to them on the Phone every couple weeks just talked to one of the owners the other day told him I like the Canned Reading from High falls and agreed the draft they do there, bottled and Caned are so close it is almost impossible to tell the differance. Gary Just found the web site it is www.readingbeer.com

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Beer Is Food

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[dave ziegler]

Thanks Gary That is great No wonder it is so darn Good! I love the stuff and wish it was easier to get here in pa, But as long as I have good friends going up I will be able to get it and enjoy it! That also shows the Value of an older person who knows what it should be like and creates it that way. Three Cheers to the Owners of Naaragansett for taking that Important step no wonder it is selling so well! Our Own Reading Premium Beer is starting to take off now it is going so good they are having High falls now put it in cans for them. And The Loin is still doing bottles for them till things get good enough that they can do what their dream is and build their Own Large Brewery to have besides their Micro Brewery in Reading! If you can ever get some Gary try it! They have done the same thing as far as Cans and bottles using the past to help the future with the retro design. They also are friends with some of the old reading Brewing people brewmasters ect and I would not be surprised it they did not get some help there. If you want to see there site it is Under Reading brewing or Reading Premium Beer. Or Under Legacy brewing.

Narragansett has become again one of My very Favorite Beers and I Highly recomend any one Reading this to give it a try. Again Gary Thanks for your Insight into all these things you always find the Best things! Also if you go on the Reading Beer site they tell about the history and why they bought the Name back and started it again. I talk to them on the Phone every couple weeks just talked to one of the owners the other day told him I like the Canned Reading from High falls and agreed the draft they do there, bottled and Caned are so close it is almost impossible to tell the differance. Gary Just found the web site it is www.readingbeer.com

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Beer Is Food

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I am about to ask a question and Hope someone will give me the answer, What was the Oldest Beer ever drank safely that was good and was it in a can or Bottle? I have wondered this for years. I'm Thinking Maybe Gary will know but all answers are most welcome.

Dave Z

Beer Its More Then Just A Beveraga beer Is Food

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[BourbonJoe]

Dave,

I would have to think it was Yuengling since it is America's oldest brewery.

Joe :usflag:

[dave ziegler]

I am about to ask a question and Hope someone will give me the answer, What was the Oldest Beer ever drank safely that was good and was it in a can or Bottle? I have wondered this for years. I'm Thinking Maybe Gary will know but all answers are most welcome.

Dave Z

Beer Its More Then Just A Beveraga beer Is Food

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I think I have just by pure luck found the oldest one. In Oct 12 1999 a diver found I think it said 8 pint snap top bottles that were 105 yrs old. per the date of the ship sinking. One of them the cap poped loose so he tried it and ended up drinking the whole bottle! It was found at Loch Shiel off the Coast of Wales, he said it was a bit stale and very Hoppy but tasted pretty good! I would like also to know what the longest possible time a Beer can keep if you keep it out of light in a cool Basement or place like that!

Dave Z

[dave ziegler]

I am hoping that either Gary or someone else can shed some light on Poth Beer Brewed in Phila. I am very interested in them as not only do I have an old full bottle from 1939 and a full bottle of Phila Lager Made in the same Building over 56 yrs later, but I have read alot about Fred A Poth being a very good person and making many beers and that his Brewery was one of the first if not the first to have refridgeration! I wonder Gary if you read this does your Book say anything About Poth beer or Ale? And anyone esle who knows anything about Poth. To my amazement I not only delivered near the Building but I actually went in the Building to deliver some times. In speaking to a man named Rich Wagner a Phila Beer Historian he told me that there was a lesuire Equipment builder in there till Red Bell bought it after they went out of Bussiness. Then it hit me the name was Wallace Lesiure Equipment they made Chairs and all sorts of things and I went there many times delivering but never relized it had been the Poth Brewery till I started to Drink Red Bell Beers. I can see why they said It could stand after a atom Bomb hit it the walls were over two foot thick when I walked in there one time delivering. I am very Hopeful that it will be spared by the people who bought it now. westrum Development they have spared other old Historic Brewerys making them into condos and Lofts and Offices and saving all the original structure.The sad part is that in 1995 it had become the Largest Micro Brewery there was and could crank out 30,000 Barrels a year and their Beers were great Phila Lager, Black cherry Stout. and many more. Very sad to see all the Stuff taken out at auction in May and it most likely never being a Brewery again after coming back 58 years to being a brewey and having had 5 Million spent on the place and having state of the art equipment. Just as Mr Poth had made it state of the art in the old days!

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Beer Is Food

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[Gillman]

Dave, Poth does not ring a bell but I'll check in Robertson's book tonight.

There was a stash of beers discovered in a Victorian vault last year from around the 1870's. Some were tasted and taste notes are available online.

That is an interesting taste note, on the beer from the sunken ship. Stale I can understand, and high hops rates would have characterised many (not all) beers at the time, especially those being shipped by sea.

Gary

[dave ziegler]

Gary I will look forward to what you can find out in the book about F.A.Poth. Looking at my American Brewers Historic Collection Poth can made by Huber Brewing The Frederick August Poth Brewery in Phila was it states on the can was one of the most inovative of its time having refrigeration and other brewing inventions. It says He came to America in 1861 and by 1865 had opened the first parts of his brewery expanding as the years went by Building the newest part in 1895 due to rapid growth in his bussiness. It must have been some good beer. Came back after Prohibition ended and went till sometime near the late 1940's. Thats about all I have found hope you find some good stuff on it and I thank you-BE Well

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Beer Is Food

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[Gillman]

It's not in my Robertson, Dave, but a reference to Poth is found in American Breweries by Donald Bull, Manfred Friedrich and Robert Gottschalk, which is a list as of 1984 of all American breweries and their years of operation. Poth is listed as being in business at different addresses from 1865 until 1936. It appears to have been at 31st and Jefferson and before that at 3rd and Green in Philadelphia. Its last name was Poth Brewing Co., Inc. Until 1920 it was F.A. Poth & Sons. Probably the business became incorporated after Prohibition.

Gary

[Gillman]

Actually by checking the brand name Old German, I think I know what happened to the brand. In Robertson's book, he shows a picture of a label for Old German Brand beer. The script of the Old German name (the typeface I mean) is a Germanic style that is almost identical to what appears on your bottle from 1939. And on the side of the Old German label in Robertson's (1970's-era) book, it states, Yeungling. So clearly Yeungling bought the trade mark, either directly or indirectly from Poth Brewing Co. By 1939, your beer possibly was made by Yeungling. Or maybe it was from the last stocks made by Poth Brewing which closed in 1936 according to the other book I mentioned. Or another Philly brewer bought Poth's beer names in 1936 and made what you have and that brewer later sold the name to Yeungling or an assignee of the former of the Old German name did so. Hey I thought I was off work!

Gary

[dave ziegler]

Thanks for the help Gary very interesting, here are two pictures of other Poth stuff

1. A old Poth Ale can 1936

2. An old Poth Pilsner Bottle 1936

Wish I had these in my collection got the pictures on the web a long while back Their Cans are very rare

Bet it was a good Beer!

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Beer is Food

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[jesskidden]

Actually by checking the brand name Old German, I think I know what happened to the brand. In Robertson's book, he shows a picture of a label for Old German Brand beer.

Yeah, Yuengling was still brewing and marketing an "Old German" into the 1980's, IIRC. It was their "cheap beer", along with the "Bavarian" label they bought when Mount Carbon folded. As I recall it, Old German had a much broader distribution area that Bavarian (which may have been very local and in returnables, only)- pretty sure Old German in throw-aways was found in NJ. I'd say it lasted longer than Bavarian, as well. (I've got a series of Yuengling booklets from the 70's-90's and the brand appears and disappears). Of course, nowadays the old "Yuengling Beer" is their "cheap brand", "Yuengling Traditional Lager" replacing it as the "flagship" brand.

But the brand name "Old German" was used by many US breweries- a quick look and one finds it from well-known "cheap beer" breweries like Hammonton's Eastern, Maier in LA, Peter Hand in Chicago, and Queen City in Cumberland, MD. Other PA brewers like Lebanon Valley and Pittsburgh also brewed and marketed "Old German" branded beer. PIttsburgh's obviously came from their purchase of the brands of Queen City and, from what I understand, is still available in MD and western PA.

[jesskidden]

I am hoping that either Gary or someone else can shed some light on Poth Beer Brewed in Phila.

The Poth brewery is featured in the great reference book "100 Years of Brewing" (first published in 1903, reprinted in the 1970's)- including it's history (up to '03, of course) and two nice drawings of the brewery, one circa 1875, and then a "modern" 1903 one. According to the entry, the 31st and Jefferson brewery was purchased from the Bentz and Reilly firm in 1870. At the time the book was written, they had sales of 180,000 barrels.

In 1877, with production of about 14,000 barrels, they were one of about 16 Philly breweries that brewed over 12,000 bbl., bigger than better known names of Schmidt and Roger Smith, but outsold by Philly giants like Bergner and Engel (#3 in the US at the time) and Massey.

(I'd offer to scan the pics and entry, but my scanner's been fried. I'm sure those guys in the Philadelphia brewery history group have copies of the book. I've got two myself.)

Also, Poth ran an across-the-river Camden, NJ brewery for about a decade before Prohibition- it re-opened as the "Camden County Brewing Company" after Repeal, with no Poth connection. They had a, um, "colorful" history during Prohibition.

[jesskidden]

There was a stash of beers discovered in a Victorian vault last year from around the 1870's. Some were tasted and taste notes are available online.

That is an interesting taste note, on the beer from the sunken ship. Stale I can understand, and high hops rates would have characterised many (not all) beers at the time, especially those being shipped by sea.

Gary

There was a "stash" found in the UK a few years back, description can be found at the Worthington White Shield website (you'll probably first have to give your birthdate). White Shield, in this global age of brewing, is owned by Coors. As Gary notes, there are a number of articles (like this one) on the tastings.

The "shipwreck" salvaged beer story sound similar to the origins of the current "Flag Porter".

[HipFlask]

I almost mentioned Augsburger, but I thought I had rambled on enough. Stevens Point Brewery licensed the rights to it and is making it again (just not the bock, which, while not a real bock, was a really nice dark lager). It was originally made by Jos. Huber in Monroe, Wisconsin, and was sold to Stroh in around 1987 or 1988.

The Point People claim to be making it to the original recipe.

OK, I can google press released for Point brewing Augsburger from 2003, and I saw it at the brewery in 2006, but there's nothing on their site.

What's worse, I found a cached reference in their faq from April 1st, but it's no longer there.

I'll write to find out.

Augsburger you are bring back memories of high school I was fortunate to turn 18 and still be in school and the drinking age was 18. I was a popular guy as I could buy the beer and whiskey. I loved ans still do seek out any new and differnt beers I can. Augsberger was one such beer and a I drink quite a bit of it. Jos Huber Brewing Co. Monroe, WI. It's funny that Point beer was nasty but cheap auquired the name of such a fine beer. Any body else drink MeisterBrau?