Liquor Store "Huh?" Moments

[Jazzhead]

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 10:46 PM, dad-proof said:

That's a great point. The father was around and seemed like a pretty good guy, and for being such a small store they really had an interesting wine and beer selection. It makes sense that junior jumped on the craft whiskey hype train, maybe without pops being onboard, and now the pressure is on him to sell the stuff.

 

But, as someone in sales, I can confirm he broke every rule in the book. Maybe that's why I just stood there incredulously with half smile, thinking "WTF is happening right now?" to myself. Haha.

No question he used the wrong sales approach.     But I appreciate a substantive discussion with a knowledgeable liquor store employee (who's not condescending).     The problem with craft is separating the wheat from the chaff.   I'm curious - did the guy know his stuff, or was he just pushing for a sale?      Did he recommend products that reflected true craft methods and production,  or just sourced stuff sporting a unique label?    A good salesman will understand why folks patronize the legacy distillers  and talk up, for example,  craft products with age statements that use full-size barrels, or that have unique mashbills.      The best "hype" for a  craft distiller is transparency about mashbill and method.  

[Jazzhead]

13 hours ago, EarthQuake said:

The local place, Cedar Ridge, just about 10 minutes drive from me in Iowa City has been producing more and more impressive stuff lately. They did a barrel proof store pick for a local whiskey group, 5 year old bourbon I think, that was among the best craft whiskies I've had, but still not on par with the big boys. I sampled a barrel proof 5 year old J Henry (from Wisconsin) that was very good for craft too. There's another place in Wisconsin, Driftless Glen, that people seem to really like, but I haven't tried their stuff yet.

 

Few was something I quite liked when I started getting into whiskey about 6 years ago (not long after they opened, when they first started winning awards). The rye was quite good (or so I thought), mostly mixed in Old Fashioneds). I bought a few bottles of it. But then at one point, I bought a new bottle and it was awful. Just terrible whiskey, among the worst I've ever purchased. So I'm not sure what happened. Whether my tastes changed or what they were bottling changed or some combination of the two. When I was in Chicago a year or two ago we went to the tour at Few and tried most of the stuff they make. It was all bad, young, too grain forward, and aged in those micro barrels.

 

So I'm curious to hear if you've been a recent buyer of Few, or if the stuff you bought was a few years back? I think the bottles that we found to be bad started around 2014 or 2015. I have a sneaking suspicion that they were bottling sourced whiskey before then, but I have absolutely no proof of this. Either that or they changed production to meet demand and the quality fell off. Of course it's possible I just couldn't tell good whiskey from bad when I first started buying it (likely).

 

Speaking of Chicago area whiskey, Koval is foul stuff. At least when I tried it a few years back. We got a sample pack of the Bourbon, Rye and Four Grain, and I think most of it ended up down the drain. Perhaps it was the Rye that sucked the least? That was used for making bitters and whiskey cherries.

I haven't tried Cedar Ridge bourbon.    I sorta liked their malt whiskey, but not enough to buy another.     It's great to see more and more craft bourbons being marketed as straights,  with some at ages (4 and up)  that can compete with the big boys (putting aside, of course, the value proposition).   

 

I haven't had FEW rye in several years;   I thought it was meh,  but I keep coming back for their bourbon.    I really like the stuff!    I know they still likely use smaller barrels and it's not labelled as a straight,  but I've drank their bourbon in a variety of settings and it just plain and simple hits the spot for me.    Had some last night, in fact, along with a pour of Gooderham and Worts Four Grain,  a Canadian whiskey which I think would interest bourbon drinkers.    (G&W uses the classic bourbon grains but,   Canadian style,   distils and ages each grain separately and then marries them,  rather than distilling from a mashbill. )     

[dad-proof]

41 minutes ago, Jazzhead said:

No question he used the wrong sales approach.     But I appreciate a substantive discussion with a knowledgeable liquor store employee (who's not condescending).     The problem with craft is separating the wheat from the chaff.   I'm curious - did the guy know his stuff, or was he just pushing for a sale?      Did he recommend products that reflected true craft methods and production,  or just sourced stuff sporting a unique label?    A good salesman will understand why folks patronize the legacy distillers  and talk up, for example,  craft products with age statements that use full-size barrels, or that have unique mashbills.      The best "hype" for a  craft distiller is transparency about mashbill and method.  

 

He was all over the place, but mostly fluff. A few examples: He pushed ASW Fiddler,No mention of mashbills (mostly high-wheat MGP with a small amount of ASW's distillate blended in), no tasting notes, no information (additional wood influence), just that they were good guys. Then he pushed RM Rose out of Dillard, GA - he knew the story of the original RM Rose distillery near the Vinings area of Atlanta - he grew up on Paces Ferry after all (which is a brag for those not familiar with Atlanta) -  and pushed the (unproven) theory that RM Rose's sons went on to start Four Roses in KY. But again, no tasting notes or other information. I picked up a bottle of Wyoming Whisky (since I knew a bit about it) and instead of anything about the whiskey he told me about skiing at Jackson Hole and going to Yellowstone. - "Yeah, Wyoming is a pretty cool place - what's your deal with Wyoming?" he asked. I brought up Belle Meade doing good things out of Nashville - "yeah my brother's old roommate owns the distillery" - which is likely true, but again said nothing about the quality of the product. In short, he was mocking macro-bourbon for being marketing hype, and then tried to push $50+ bottles of craft whiskey (mostly sourced from the most macro of distilleries!) on me solely with marketing hype.

[0895]

12 minutes ago, dad-proof said:

 

He was all over the place, but mostly fluff. A few examples: He pushed ASW Fiddler,No mention of mashbills (mostly high-wheat MGP with a small amount of ASW's distillate blended in), no tasting notes, no information (additional wood influence), just that they were good guys. Then he pushed RM Rose out of Dillard, GA - he knew the story of the original RM Rose distillery near the Vinings area of Atlanta - he grew up on Paces Ferry after all (which is a brag for those not familiar with Atlanta) -  and pushed the (unproven) theory that RM Rose's sons went on to start Four Roses in KY. But again, no tasting notes or other information. I picked up a bottle of Wyoming Whisky (since I knew a bit about it) and instead of anything about the whiskey he told me about skiing at Jackson Hole and going to Yellowstone. - "Yeah, Wyoming is a pretty cool place - what's your deal with Wyoming?" he asked. I brought up Belle Meade doing good things out of Nashville - "yeah my brother's old roommate owns the distillery" - which is likely true, but again said nothing about the quality of the product. In short, he was mocking macro-bourbon for being marketing hype, and then tried to push $50+ bottles of craft whiskey (mostly sourced from the most macro of distilleries!) on me solely with marketing hype.

 

 

The real problem here is the ethics. 

These tactics must be working in some form or another to reinforce the behavior.

While many people can see through it, there’s also a percentage that falls victim. 

 

I know several people who act like this and they just keep going through life making shit up about everything, to the point that you literally cannot believe anything they say.  I bet if you went back to that store with frequency, you would find the stories change each time, because he forgets all the lies/nonsense he spews.  This guy is a half & half. 

Half of it is just nonsense trying to pressure you in an action he wants (sales/opening your wallet), the other half is him being a “cool whipper” and trying to top everything.  He knows everyone, has been everywhere, experienced everything, and always has a better life experience than you. 

Consider yourself fortunate that you’re well educated with whiskey. 

[Jazzhead]

1 hour ago, dad-proof said:

 

He was all over the place, but mostly fluff. A few examples: He pushed ASW Fiddler,No mention of mashbills (mostly high-wheat MGP with a small amount of ASW's distillate blended in), no tasting notes, no information (additional wood influence), just that they were good guys. Then he pushed RM Rose out of Dillard, GA - he knew the story of the original RM Rose distillery near the Vinings area of Atlanta - he grew up on Paces Ferry after all (which is a brag for those not familiar with Atlanta) -  and pushed the (unproven) theory that RM Rose's sons went on to start Four Roses in KY. But again, no tasting notes or other information. I picked up a bottle of Wyoming Whisky (since I knew a bit about it) and instead of anything about the whiskey he told me about skiing at Jackson Hole and going to Yellowstone. - "Yeah, Wyoming is a pretty cool place - what's your deal with Wyoming?" he asked. I brought up Belle Meade doing good things out of Nashville - "yeah my brother's old roommate owns the distillery" - which is likely true, but again said nothing about the quality of the product. In short, he was mocking macro-bourbon for being marketing hype, and then tried to push $50+ bottles of craft whiskey (mostly sourced from the most macro of distilleries!) on me solely with marketing hype.

Sounds like an aggressive,  perhaps even condescending, huckster.   What's sad is that a lot of whiskey drinkers are more attracted to the sexy story than  facts about mashbills,  barrels and the like that concern the folks on this board.    I bet this guy sells a lot of bottles with his stories - but he won't see repeat business for those bottles unless the product is good.   

[Mako254]

3 hours ago, Jazzhead said:

.    Theres no better pour than   a Wild Turkey Kentucky Spirit,  

 

I'll state my prejudices -  all things being equal,  I would choose craft.   But all things are not equal.    The legacy distillers have vast stocks of aged product,  and most are catering to the craft ethos with single barrel and small batch offerings.   And,   of  course,  they absolutely crush the craft distillers when it

 

It is interesting to note the difference between how the "mega-factories" are perceived by beer and bourbon aficionados.   The former embrace craft as the antidote to the Budweisers of the world,  while at least some of the latter appear rankled when one points out the legacy distillers' enormous size advantage.    

 

 

 

Right you are about Turkey!’

 

I was into craft beer before getting seriously into bourbon and I agree with the contrast. 

 

The huge difference is you can ramp up production of say Cigar City Jal Alai (a personal favorite). Cigar City contract brews at oskar blues in North Carolina. So a beer that 5 years ago I could only buy in nicer bottle shops in Florida, I can now buy in gas stations in south carolina. As well all know, most bourbon needs at least 4 years,  really 6 or 7 or more to be fully matured. Beer you can do in a month. 

 

So while I most certainly support local brewers in my market and region, I’ll be buying my bourbon that comes off a bifg ass column still in Anderson cnty KY. 

[Jazzhead]

54 minutes ago, Mako254 said:

 

 

So while I most certainly support local brewers in my market and region, I’ll be buying my bourbon that comes off a bifg ass column still in Anderson cnty KY. 

I certainly understand, and for the reasons - quality and aging - that you cite.   

 

But the best craft distillers are beginning to catch up.   Wyoming and Dad's Hat, for example,  now put out bottled-in-bond products, and I've bought multiple bottles of both.     Craft distillers have been in the wilderness, trying to stay solvent as their distilled product ages.  Some turn to sourced whiskey,  some turn to blending.    I can support such efforts,  so long as the product's provenance is not hidden.     It's a shame when a craft distiller waits a prudent amount of time to release its own product, and its turns out to be terrible (I won't name who I'm thinking of here).     But for those craft distillers who respect me as an intelligent consumer,  I'll give their product a try.    And, if it's good, buy it again.  

[ratcheer]

I noticed two different bottlings in the Alabama ABC yesterday where the total of two 375 ml bottles was significantly less than a 750 ml bottle. Huh?

[GeeTen]

1 hour ago, ratcheer said:

I noticed two different bottlings in the Alabama ABC yesterday where the total of two 375 ml bottles was significantly less than a 750 ml bottle. Huh?

Just think Blanton's 375s vs. 750s in the Virginia ABC stores a couple of years ago . . . . . .

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by GeeTen

[Richnimrod]

8 hours ago, Jazzhead said:

I appreciate a substantive discussion with a knowledgeable liquor store employee (who's not condescending).  

FIRST, let me apologize for editing your post, Jazz. 

I only do so to highlight the point I'm about to make. 

To wit: I can't say for sure I've EVER met a truly 'knowledgeable liquor store employee', at least in the last 8 or 9-years, ... condescending or not, though that would make it even less likely one would ever find such a person.   This is, of course just from my own experience.     I've met about two that were really knowledgeable about Bourbon, and those meetings were waaaaay before the advent of nearly all of the 'craft distillers', and the recent proliferation of Bourbon brands.

[smokinjoe]

10 hours ago, Jazzhead said:

My apologies,  smokinjoe,  for the use of that term.    Although in my defense I said craft distillers have trouble competing in the bourbon space because of the quality and better aging of the competition.

 

It seems that the preferred term around here is legacy distiller,  but there's no denying that these are mostly all large scale industrial operations owned by conglomerates.,  that distill more in a day than a craft distiller will in a year.    Not that there's anything wrong with that.    The best bourbon  -  of a quality equaling or surpassing the best whiskeys in the world, -   come from these places.    There's no better pour than a Bakers,  or a Wild Turkey Kentucky Spirit,  or an Old Forester Statesman.    

 

I'll state my prejudices -  all things being equal,  I would choose craft.   But all things are not equal.    The legacy distillers have vast stocks of aged product,  and most are catering to the craft ethos with single barrel and small batch offerings.   And,   of  course,  they absolutely crush the craft distillers when it comes to the value proposition -   Jim Beam Double Oaked is currently on offer at the Pennsy state stores at $16,99.    That's just insane given how sip-able it is.   

 

It is interesting to note the difference between how the "mega-factories" are perceived by beer and bourbon aficionados.   The former embrace craft as the antidote to the Budweisers of the world,  while at least some of the latter appear rankled when one points out the legacy distillers' enormous size advantage.    

 

As for me,  I enjoy the whiskey journey,  and the search for the Good Stuff.   I appreciate what the legacy distillers do,  but don't disparage the craft distillers who are open about their methods and innovations.  

 

An attempt to “point out the legacy distillers enormous size advantage”, is one thing.  But, using “mega-factories” as your descriptor was no doubt meant pejoratively, is another.  

[GeeTen]

1 hour ago, Richnimrod said:

I can't say for sure I've EVER met a truly 'knowledgeable liquor store employee', at least in the last 8 or 9-years, ... condescending or not, though that would make it even less likely one would ever find such a person.   This is, of course just from my own experience.     I've met about two that were really knowledgeable about Bourbon, and those meetings were waaaaay before the advent of nearly all of the 'craft distillers', and the recent proliferation of Bourbon brands.

 

Hey Rich - have we met yet???  My retirement jobs have been working for a LARGE East Coast-based retail liquor store chain and in a spirits/wine shop for a LARGE Upstate New York-based grocery store chain.  However, according to my wife, between the two of us we know everything there is to know about whiskey and wine - I think I know it all and she knows I DON'T!  

 

But I agree with you - I have found that "truly knowledgeable liquor store employees" are few and far between.  But that's why I so much spend time on SB.com, reading and listening to all y'all and sharing what little bourbon knowledge and bottles I have with others.  Besides, I don't have the patience or personality to be a CPA (no offense meant, CPAs!!!).  

 

[Richnimrod]

2 hours ago, GeeTen said:

 

Hey Rich - have we met yet???  My retirement jobs have been working for a LARGE East Coast-based retail liquor store chain and in a spirits/wine shop for a LARGE Upstate New York-based grocery store chain.  However, according to my wife, between the two of us we know everything there is to know about whiskey and wine - I think I know it all and she knows I DON'T!  

 

But I agree with you - I have found that "truly knowledgeable liquor store employees" are few and far between.  But that's why I so much spend time on SB.com, reading and listening to all y'all and sharing what little bourbon knowledge and bottles I have with others.  Besides, I don't have the patience or personality to be a CPA (no offense meant, CPAs!!!).  

 

Yes, we have met; but, not in any liquor store.   We shared a few pours and some laughs at the GN in Bardstown, in April.    I knew you had worked in a liquor store from your posts here, though I wasn't including you in the 'two', since we haven't been associated as a 'customer' and a 'salesperson'... so far anyway.   And, I did enjoy my time with you all the other Bourbonians in B'town... as I always do.

[kevinbrink]

14 hours ago, Jazzhead said:

It is interesting to note the difference between how the "mega-factories" are perceived by beer and bourbon aficionados.   The former embrace craft as the antidote to the Budweisers of the world,  while at least some of the latter appear rankled when one points out the legacy distillers' enormous size advantage.    

 

As for me,  I enjoy the whiskey journey,  and the search for the Good Stuff.   I appreciate what the legacy distillers do,  but don't disparage the craft distillers who are open about their methods and innovations.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Mako254 said:

Right you are about Turkey!’

 

I was into craft beer before getting seriously into bourbon and I agree with the contrast. 

 

The huge difference is you can ramp up production of say Cigar City Jal Alai (a personal favorite). Cigar City contract brews at oskar blues in North Carolina. So a beer that 5 years ago I could only buy in nicer bottle shops in Florida, I can now buy in gas stations in south carolina. As well all know, most bourbon needs at least 4 years,  really 6 or 7 or more to be fully matured. Beer you can do in a month. 

 

So while I most certainly support local brewers in my market and region, I’ll be buying my bourbon that comes off a bifg ass column still in Anderson cnty KY. 

As Craft Beer starts to descend into it's bust period, it's interesting that the early victims are all larger craft outfits almost to the point where they are viewed as the big factories and the producers of American Adjunct Lagers are there own category all together.   I'm not sure how many parallels you can draw between the two though adjunct laden barrel finished beers with flavors so bold they left any nuance in their wake seem to be a very straight line to all the barrel finishes hitting the market these days. Either way, I hadn't been drinking much beer for the last few years after a decade and a half of being very enthusiastic about it and when I did I tended to go with old favorites rather than what was new and cool.

[GeeTen]

52 minutes ago, Richnimrod said:

Yes, we have met; but, not in any liquor store.   We shared a few pours and some laughs at the GN in Bardstown, in April.    I knew you had worked in a liquor store from your posts here, though I wasn't including you in the 'two', since we haven't been associated as a 'customer' and a 'salesperson'... so far anyway.   And, I did enjoy my time with you all the other Bourbonians in B'town... as I always do.

 

Sorry, but after a "few" bourbons at the Gazebo, all you "white guys" looked alike!   C u next year.   

 

[PaulO]

Craft whiskey rode the coat tails of craft beer into the culture.

If it's "craft" it has to be good?  Not all craft beers are good (some are).  I see a lot of craft breweries putting out their own Bud/Miller/Coors clone.  Sorry, not worth $10+ a six or four pack to me.  Then there are the brews with all the odd flavors added - no thanks.

Craft distillers "doing things right" - what does that mean?

I don't believe people that age dodgy new make in small barrels are doing anything right.  The small distilleries that closely follow the norms of the legacy brands may make something that tastes good.

Making good whiskey is much more complicated than brewing beer.   

[BMartin42]

As an Illinois native we have several “local” crafts within driving distance. I bought them all at some point with the thought that everyone wants to put out great stuff, right? The Koval was really bad, really really bad.....but......it was a little better than the Few which was atrocious, I mean really disgusting at best. And then I tried the Journeyman...omg...this turned me against “craft” distilling for good. Putrid might be the best description. Full on stomach turning.

Just don’t try it if you aren’t gonna do it right. Thank you New Riff. Pretty darn decent. Not WT, BT, HH, FR good, but really decent. Nothing makes good bourbon but age and technique. Sorry crafts, but the small barrels, heated warehouse, sticks, dirt, and whatever the heck else you use are no substitute. I’m all for small guys making good product, but you gotta do the patience thing.

[Jazzhead]

9 hours ago, PaulO said:

 

Craft distillers "doing things right" - what does that mean?

 

To me,  "doing things right" means transparency.    I don't mind that a craft distiller uses smaller barrels,   or uses an unconventional mashbill,  or blends its own distillate with sourced whiskey,  so long as it tells me about it.    My enjoyment of bourbon is a function of knowledge, including knowledge of method and provenance.     I love what Tom's Foolery does -  you can look up everything you need to know about every barrel and batch, right there on their website.   

 

[Jazzhead]

8 hours ago, BMartin42 said:

As an Illinois native we have several “local” crafts within driving distance. I bought them all at some point with the thought that everyone wants to put out great stuff, right? The Koval was really bad, really really bad.....but......it was a little better than the Few which was atrocious, I mean really disgusting at best. And then I tried the Journeyman...omg...this turned me against “craft” distilling for good. Putrid might be the best description. Full on stomach turning.

Koval is not to my taste (I'm reminded of green bananas),  but I dig that they innovate by using millet as the secondary grain in their bourbon.    That stuff  really just needs to age more.    FEW,  as I've noted here before,  makes a balanced,  drinkable bourbon that I happen to enjoy.    I wish they'd be more transparent about their aging and barrel policy,  but I've gone back for more.     As for Journeyman,   they make a decent rye but I've never had their bourbon.    

[CardsandBourbon]

15 hours ago, Richnimrod said:

FIRST, let me apologize for editing your post, Jazz. 

I only do so to highlight the point I'm about to make. 

To wit: I can't say for sure I've EVER met a truly 'knowledgeable liquor store employee', at least in the last 8 or 9-years, ... condescending or not, though that would make it even less likely one would ever find such a person.   This is, of course just from my own experience.     I've met about two that were really knowledgeable about Bourbon, and those meetings were waaaaay before the advent of nearly all of the 'craft distillers', and the recent proliferation of Bourbon brands.

I know it's different in other places but I've found that the guys at Packages & More are fairly knowledgeable, they know my face now and will make recommendations based on my previous purchases.  They'll also tell you whether they've tried their PS bottles and give you some tasting notes.  I guess they're really the exception.  My local Liquor Barn Spirit's Manager is pretty straight with me too.

Sounds like I'm lucky to live where I do, although I've run into the ass hat types pushing crap too.

[flahute]

15 hours ago, Jazzhead said:

To me,  "doing things right" means transparency.    I don't mind that a craft distiller uses smaller barrels,   or uses an unconventional mashbill,  or blends its own distillate with sourced whiskey,  so long as it tells me about it.    My enjoyment of bourbon is a function of knowledge, including knowledge of method and provenance.     I love what Tom's Foolery does -  you can look up everything you need to know about every barrel and batch, right there on their website.   

 

Transparency is what we all want of course but if the whiskey sucks than it doesn’t matter a bit. 

As I’ve said many times, anyone can learn how to distill but distilling actual good whiskey is hard. Very hard. The legacy distillers have like a 100 year head start. They know what they are doing. A few of the craft distillers are coming along nicely but the overwhelming majority have a VERY long way to go. 

[hollywood]

On 6/20/2019 at 12:35 PM, ratcheer said:

I noticed two different bottlings in the Alabama ABC yesterday where the total of two 375 ml bottles was significantly less than a 750 ml bottle. Huh?

Hey, Rat’, it’s been a long time! Maybe it’s just me, but I think of a “reverse” huh moment here is the local ABC stores selling EWBIB for $2-3 dollars less per bottle then EWB.... 

[TehRegion219]

Not bourbon, but still “wtfhuhwtf?”   Im sure the prices can’t be too far off from retail (as in not secondary market prices), but wow that’s some serious cheese for those bottles. 

[FasterHorses]

1 hour ago, TehRegion219 said:

Not bourbon, but still “wtfhuhwtf?”   Im sure the prices can’t be too far off from retail (as in not secondary market prices), but wow that’s some serious cheese for those bottles. 

And not behind glass??!! 

[pyro273]

On 6/19/2019 at 7:22 PM, EarthQuake said:

The local place, Cedar Ridge, just about 10 minutes drive from me in Iowa City has been producing more and more impressive stuff lately. They did a barrel proof store pick for a local whiskey group, 5 year old bourbon I think, that was among the best craft whiskies I've had, but still not on par with the big boys. I sampled a barrel proof 5 year old J Henry (from Wisconsin) that was very good for craft too. There's another place in Wisconsin, Driftless Glen, that people seem to really like, but I haven't tried their stuff yet.

 

Few was something I quite liked when I started getting into whiskey about 6 years ago (not long after they opened, when they first started winning awards). The rye was quite good (or so I thought), mostly mixed in Old Fashioneds). I bought a few bottles of it. But then at one point, I bought a new bottle and it was awful. Just terrible whiskey, among the worst I've ever purchased. So I'm not sure what happened. Whether my tastes changed or what they were bottling changed or some combination of the two. When I was in Chicago a year or two ago we went to the tour at Few and tried most of the stuff they make. It was all bad, young, too grain forward, and aged in those micro barrels.

 

So I'm curious to hear if you've been a recent buyer of Few, or if the stuff you bought was a few years back? I think the bottles that we found to be bad started around 2014 or 2015. I have a sneaking suspicion that they were bottling sourced whiskey before then, but I have absolutely no proof of this. Either that or they changed production to meet demand and the quality fell off. Of course it's possible I just couldn't tell good whiskey from bad when I first started buying it (likely).

 

Speaking of Chicago area whiskey, Koval is foul stuff. At least when I tried it a few years back. We got a sample pack of the Bourbon, Rye and Four Grain, and I think most of it ended up down the drain. Perhaps it was the Rye that sucked the least? That was used for making bitters and whiskey cherries.

The wife showed up with two bottles of FEW Flaming Lips a while back.  Thought I might try it......ugh.   It's not that bad that it's going down the drain but it's going on the cocktail shelf.