What Bourbon Are you Drinking Summer 2023?

[Anwalt]

Oops, it's fall. I wasn't paying attention to thread titles. And I don't even have "I was drinking" as an excuse.

[mbroo5880i]

3 hours ago, Anwalt said:

Oops, it's fall. I wasn't paying attention to thread titles. And I don't even have "I was drinking" as an excuse.

 

As we get older, the seasons seem to blend together.  Congratulations on THE Ohio State University victory yesterday.  Hopefully, they will continue to play well and be the consensus national high school football champion.  

[IamMatt]

9 hours ago, FacePlant said:

My grandfather drank JW Dant. He passed in 1977, probably from complications of drinking? He could drink more whiskey than anyone I've known before or after. An E TN gentleman that was a "functional alcoholic" who never slurred, stumbled, and drove perfectly after drinking heavily. Each day he came home from work, showered and ate, then proceeded to drink a 1/5 from a juice glass chased with water over the next 3hrs+. He would shoot each drink and never sipped it for enjoyment. On the weekend days he'd drink the 1/5 followed by a pint while enjoying some beer with the guys. Looking back I can't imagine how one person could down so much so I can't expect anyone else believe this.

You guys would know the distiller at the time- late 50s through late 70s but it was not HH of today (think UD?). I thought when I grew up I'd shoot that Dant like granddad, but I'll never be able to drink "his drink". AND I don't know why Dant, maybe price or availability had more to do with it?

I keep a plastic 1/2gal of the HH under the bar and will throw one down for him from time to time. 

I am a first-generation Californian.  My father's family has lived in the South since they came over from England in the 1600s, starting in Virginia and ending up in Mississippi by the early 1800s.  My father was born in Memphis (Central High, class of 1943).  I visited my grandfather's home in Jackson, MS for the first time in 1972, after he had retired.  He usually had a tall glass of light brown liquid and ice starting in the afternoon.  Imagine my shock when I looked in the pantry one day and saw a case of SCOTCH!!  Oh, the shame.  I have tried to make up for his choice of whiskeys. 

[Jazz June]

22 hours ago, FacePlant said:

My grandfather drank JW Dant. He passed in 1977, probably from complications of drinking? He could drink more whiskey than anyone I've known before or after. An E TN gentleman that was a "functional alcoholic" who never slurred, stumbled, and drove perfectly after drinking heavily. Each day he came home from work, showered and ate, then proceeded to drink a 1/5 from a juice glass chased with water over the next 3hrs+. He would shoot each drink and never sipped it for enjoyment. On the weekend days he'd drink the 1/5 followed by a pint while enjoying some beer with the guys. Looking back I can't imagine how one person could down so much so I can't expect anyone else believe this.

You guys would know the distiller at the time- late 50s through late 70s but it was not HH of today (think UD?). I thought when I grew up I'd shoot that Dant like granddad, but I'll never be able to drink "his drink". AND I don't know why Dant, maybe price or availability had more to do with it?

I keep a plastic 1/2gal of the HH under the bar and will throw one down for him from time to time. 

 

The JW Dant brand was purchased by United Distillers ("UD") in 1943, but then sold to Schenley in 1953. Guinness bought Schenley in 1987 and merged it into UD. The brand was purchased from UD by Heaven Hill in 1993.

 

The actual Dant bourbon was produced at a number of different distilleries through these times (the actual Dant Distillery was closed in the 1960s.). Schenley owned the George T. Stagg distillery (what is now called Buffalo Trace) and produced Dant there (as can be seen on Dant BiB bottles bearing its DSP-KY-113). They also made Dant at "Old" Bernheim (DSP-KY-1 and DSP-KY-2). Old Bernheim went silent in 1986 and was demolished in 1991. "New" Bernheim (DSP-KY-1) opened in 1992 and was purchased by Heaven Hill in 1999, which is where Dant is made today (although it is bottled at Old Heaven Hill Springs, DSP-KY-31). More recently, Dant descendants tried to use a number of trademarks with DANT in them at their new Log Still Distillery, but faced opposition from Heaven Hill and appear to have dropped these attempts.

 

The Dant family was also responsible for the YELLOWSTONE brand bourbon, until they sold it to Glenmore in 1944. Glenmore was also sold to Guinness and merged into UD in 1991. Yellowstone is of course now owned by MGP/Luxco and produced at the Limestone Branch Distillery under the care of a couple of Beams.

[kcgumbohead]

21 hours ago, Anwalt said:

So I took this guy's little cousin (SW SmB SB) to Chile to share. It was surprisingly good. The bottle did not last very long.

 

I was never "wowed" by the UCUF. But then again...that happens a lot. Then I try the bottle months later and end up liking or even loving it. So we'll see.

 

I shall be in Vegas in November...I wonder if the distillery isn't worth a visit?

I don't believe there is yet anywhere to visit. Last I read a tasting room is in the works but ya might be lookin at 2024 before that happens.

From the website: In our current location we do not offer tours or tastings but we look forward to opening to the public in 2024 once we move into our new facility.

[kcgumbohead]

On 9/24/2023 at 12:35 AM, Kepler said:

 

Just some reality checks to point out.

 

WB Saffell is a current product (basically current, as you can still see it on shelves in several states).  So comparing the value proposition of a currently available product to a long-gone dinosaur product like dusty Turkey (produced in cypress wood tanks and in a still that no longer exists) is not really comparing apples to apples.  Clearly, the value of dusty Turkey (or any other vintage whiskey) lies in the historical experience, not the taste compared to currently available products on shelves across the country on any liquor store shelf.

 

Having said that, I personally find that the current modern WT101 and Rare Breed can stand up to WT products made in the past.  And I can purchase WT101 today for 22 bucks in my market (<$50 for Rare Breed) which is incredible when you think about it in today's crazy bourbon retail market.

 

Dusty Turkey isn't necessarily better, just different.  The "different" historical experience is what we pay extra for.

 

 

 

 

 

While silenced, the old still, still  exists but as a centerpiece for the tasting room in the visitors center ( currently under renovation). So you can still visit the still, or could or...will be able to again at some undisclosed date in the future?

[FacePlant]

6 hours ago, Jazz June said:

 

The JW Dant brand was purchased by United Distillers ("UD") in 1943, but then sold to Schenley in 1953. Guinness bought Schenley in 1987 and merged it into UD. The brand was purchased from UD by Heaven Hill in 1993.

 

The actual Dant bourbon was produced at a number of different distilleries through these times (the actual Dant Distillery was closed in the 1960s.). Schenley owned the George T. Stagg distillery (what is now called Buffalo Trace) and produced Dant there (as can be seen on Dant BiB bottles bearing its DSP-KY-113). They also made Dant at "Old" Bernheim (DSP-KY-1 and DSP-KY-2). Old Bernheim went silent in 1986 and was demolished in 1991. "New" Bernheim (DSP-KY-1) opened in 1992 and was purchased by Heaven Hill in 1999, which is where Dant is made today (although it is bottled at Old Heaven Hill Springs, DSP-KY-31). More recently, Dant descendants tried to use a number of trademarks with DANT in them at their new Log Still Distillery, but faced opposition from Heaven Hill and appear to have dropped these attempts.

 

The Dant family was also responsible for the YELLOWSTONE brand bourbon, until they sold it to Glenmore in 1944. Glenmore was also sold to Guinness and merged into UD in 1991. Yellowstone is of course now owned by MGP/Luxco and produced at the Limestone Branch Distillery under the care of a couple of Beams.

Excellent recap JJ. Now accordingly my Ole Granddad was drinking from the BT distillery in the 60s and 70s with Col Blanton and ETL running the show. I'll now assume he was not buying and consuming JW Dant out of convivence or price, but because it was DAMN GOOD WHISKEY! Thanks for solving the why JJ.  

[Anwalt]

2 hours ago, kcgumbohead said:

I don't believe there is yet anywhere to visit. Last I read a tasting room is in the works but ya might be lookin at 2024 before that happens.

From the website: In our current location we do not offer tours or tastings but we look forward to opening to the public in 2024 once we move into our new facility.

 

Well, that's a bummer. Looks like I'll have to do something else. It's Vegas, I'll figure it out. Appreciate the info!

[Anwalt]

Man, my grandparents' generation (born 1923, 1922) could drink. Three martinis? I'm comatose. Grandparents? They were just taking a wee lunch break. Woe betide the poor bastards who stood against them on Omaha Beach, Tarawa, and so on. Tough, tough people.

 

I have an Old Overholt that Gramps left behind. My only infinity bottle. I like knowing there's a molecule of something he enjoyed still in there, so I always fill it with more Old Overholt.

 

Grandma wasn't even 5 ft tall and could put me under the table - and that's back when I did drink a lot (Exchange student to Germany then OSU). She'd mix Yukon Jack, Guggenheimer, Southern Comfort, and Coke. She called it a Thingie. And always had one at hand.

 

They were wonderful. I was very lucky to be born when they were still pretty young & I could get to know them.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Anwalt

[Kepler]

On 9/24/2023 at 8:02 AM, Anwalt said:

Good perspective, appreciated. 

 

With that said, I hear a lot of "it used to be way better". The Dant (10y, bottled mid 60's) that someone brought to the gathering blew me away and reinforced the impression of "they don't make it like they used to". The WT (and an OGD I had yesterday), less so. But that is pretty close to all of my dusty experience. I will keep your perspective in mind as a valid additional criterion as I try more older bottles.

 

 

Timely enough, a bourbon website sent out a newsletter today about this very topic.  It was written a couple of years ago but they re-sent in their newsletter "from the vault"

Are the folks over there reading this thread? 

 

https://www.gobourbon.com/did-bourbon-really-used-to-be-better/

 

 

 

 

 

[Jazz June]

43 minutes ago, Kepler said:

 

 

Timely enough, a bourbon website sent out a newsletter today about this very topic.  It was written a couple of years ago but they re-sent in their newsletter "from the vault"

Are the folks over there reading this thread? 

 

https://www.gobourbon.com/did-bourbon-really-used-to-be-better/

 

 

 

 

 

 

A very interesting question to be sure. I think one aspect the article gets at is the difficulty of comparing like with like. He mentions Wild Turkey, which is a good one. Maker's Mark is another. Within the last year, I tasted a Maker's Mark bottled in 1983 (the original acquisition of Maker's was in 1981 by Hiram Walker, so this should have been distilled under the original corporate ownership - not sure if that was the Samuels family). Same 90 proof as today, never had an age statement. Tasted way more complex and flavorful than today's Maker's Mark (which I still enjoy by the way). And Maker's Mark has retained a few of the oft pointed to production aspects (110 entry proof, wood fermenters) that people theorize as accounting for the difference in dusties. They even still rotate barrels like distilleries did pre-war. Then why the big difference in taste? I've heard a rumor that Maker's lost their yeast at some point (specifics are foggy at the moment), so this could be one theory, but it would be only a theory. Beyond that, there are many production factors people point to and, of course, just good old OBE ("old bottle effect").

 

For me, the bottom line is that great bourbon was made in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s and great bourbon is being made today. What is perhaps a glaring difference is which products the best barrels are being dumped into. In those good old days, many distillers had only one or two expressions of their premium brands. Often they made only a bonded version and a lower proof version (often a progression as time went on, say from 90 to 86 to 80).

 

Let's take the Van Winkles and their wheated bourbon. VVOF at 12 years and 100 proof is held up by some as one of the pinnacles of bourbon. Today we have Pappy Van Winkle 15 at 107 proof and, while not a "Van Winkle," William Larue Weller at 12 years and barrel proof. Are PVW 15 and WLW better than VVOF? I don't know, but I do know that they are generally truly great bourbons. The problem is that they are very difficult to get a hold of and often absurdly expensive. For another example, again look at Turkey. Wild Turkey 12/101 from the 80's and early 90s is the best bourbon I have ever had. The current Wild Turkey 12/101 and Russell's Reserve 13 BP are also great bourbons. While yes, I would take the former, the latter two are great. But one is export only and the other is difficult to find at MSRP, which is now up to $150. I have also compared on this board a 1992 WT 101 and a recent bottling. The former is better, but the whiskey was older and went in the barrel lower. So is that comparing like with like, even if they are the "same" expression?

 

I love the old dusty hunting threads on this board from years ago. It would be wonderful to hear from those hunters on this issue, but alas most have moved on. I know a few are still left and, for some reason, they often go by Joe.

 

Lastly, I'll point out a significant error in the article (at least to me) - Van Winkle rye was not sourced from Stitzel-Weller stocks. Dig back far enough and you will find Julian saying so on this board.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Jazz June
Corrected a typo.

[Clueby]

1 hour ago, Anwalt said:

 

Well, that's a bummer. Looks like I'll have to do something else. It's Vegas, I'll figure it out. Appreciate the info!

Not only is it not open to the public, I'm pretty sure they don't actually distill anything there themselves. They also don't age whiskey there. It's a desert after all. They may have a blending and bottling operation going on there. All the distilling and aging is done at MGP.

The Mob Museum in Vegas is a cool visit, and there is a speakeasy in the basement.

[mbroo5880i]

On 9/24/2023 at 12:33 PM, FacePlant said:

My grandfather drank JW Dant. He passed in 1977, probably from complications of drinking? He could drink more whiskey than anyone I've known before or after. An E TN gentleman that was a "functional alcoholic" who never slurred, stumbled, and drove perfectly after drinking heavily. Each day he came home from work, showered and ate, then proceeded to drink a 1/5 from a juice glass chased with water over the next 3hrs+. He would shoot each drink and never sipped it for enjoyment. On the weekend days he'd drink the 1/5 followed by a pint while enjoying some beer with the guys. Looking back I can't imagine how one person could down so much so I can't expect anyone else believe this.

You guys would know the distiller at the time- late 50s through late 70s but it was not HH of today (think UD?). I thought when I grew up I'd shoot that Dant like granddad, but I'll never be able to drink "his drink". AND I don't know why Dant, maybe price or availability had more to do with it?

I keep a plastic 1/2gal of the HH under the bar and will throw one down for him from time to time. 

 

Not sure what my Grandfather drank but he owned a bar in Eastern Tennessee (Kingston) until the day he died.  I always envisioned him as a beer drinker because when we visited his bar, all of the neon signs were beer brands.  I always thought it was cool that I could go into his bar. 

[GeeTen]

Blanton's SFTB 133.6pf to send my friend back home to St. Louis Sunday.  He wanted a "big ice cube" tho' - a 6' 5" wimp . . . . . . 

 

[PaulO]

On 9/25/2023 at 11:01 AM, Jazz June said:

 

The JW Dant brand was purchased by United Distillers ("UD") in 1943, but then sold to Schenley in 1953. Guinness bought Schenley in 1987 and merged it into UD. The brand was purchased from UD by Heaven Hill in 1993.

 

The actual Dant bourbon was produced at a number of different distilleries through these times (the actual Dant Distillery was closed in the 1960s.). Schenley owned the George T. Stagg distillery (what is now called Buffalo Trace) and produced Dant there (as can be seen on Dant BiB bottles bearing its DSP-KY-113). They also made Dant at "Old" Bernheim (DSP-KY-1 and DSP-KY-2). Old Bernheim went silent in 1986 and was demolished in 1991. "New" Bernheim (DSP-KY-1) opened in 1992 and was purchased by Heaven Hill in 1999, which is where Dant is made today (although it is bottled at Old Heaven Hill Springs, DSP-KY-31). More recently, Dant descendants tried to use a number of trademarks with DANT in them at their new Log Still Distillery, but faced opposition from Heaven Hill and appear to have dropped these attempts.

 

The Dant family was also responsible for the YELLOWSTONE brand bourbon, until they sold it to Glenmore in 1944. Glenmore was also sold to Guinness and merged into UD in 1991. Yellowstone is of course now owned by MGP/Luxco and produced at the Limestone Branch Distillery under the care of a couple of Beams.

Great information here.

Dant B.I.B. was a gateway Bourbon for me.  It's still in regular rotation in my liquor cabinet.  I think when I got started it was distilled and bottled at DSP 31 (pre fire).  

[fishnbowljoe]

1 hour ago, PaulO said:

Great information here.

Dant B.I.B. was a gateway Bourbon for me.  It's still in regular rotation in my liquor cabinet.  I think when I got started it was distilled and bottled at DSP 31 (pre fire).  

I started drinking Dant BIB after finding some at a store in KY on one of my first trips to Bardstown. It was a pleasant surprise. This was before the bourbon boom, and it must have flown under the radar. On other trips we’d stop at liquor stores and grocery stores after we visited distilleries. We kept finding it. I bought a bunch over the years. Finished a bunch, shared some, and still have two left. Both are 375’s, one is tax stamped from 1984.

 

 

 

[Jazz June]

16 hours ago, fishnbowljoe said:

I started drinking Dant BIB after finding some at a store in KY on one of my first trips to Bardstown. It was a pleasant surprise. This was before the bourbon boom, and it must have flown under the radar. On other trips we’d stop at liquor stores and grocery stores after we visited distilleries. We kept finding it. I bought a bunch over the years. Finished a bunch, shared some, and still have two left. Both are 375’s, one is tax stamped from 1984.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting that Joe. Quite the variety of distillation/bottling combinations:

 

Distilled at New Bernheim (HH), bottled at Old Heaven Hill Springs.

Distilled at George T. Stagg (BT), bottled at Old Bernheim.

Distilled at Old Bernheim, bottled at Stitzel-Weller.

Distilled at Old Heaven Hill Springs, bottled at Old Heaven Hill Springs.

[VWIndy]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:38 PM, Jazz June said:

 

A very interesting question to be sure. I think one aspect the article gets at is the difficulty of comparing like with like. He mentions Wild Turkey, which is a good one. Maker's Mark is another. Within the last year, I tasted a Maker's Mark bottled in 1983 (the original acquisition of Maker's was in 1981 by Hiram Walker, so this should have been distilled under the original corporate ownership - not sure if that was the Samuels family). Same 90 proof as today, never had an age statement. Tasted way more complex and flavorful than today's Maker's Mark (which I still enjoy by the way). And Maker's Mark has retained a few of the oft pointed to production aspects (110 entry proof, wood fermenters) that people theorize as accounting for the difference in dusties. They even still rotate barrels like distilleries did pre-war. Then why the big difference in taste? I've heard a rumor that Maker's lost their yeast at some point (specifics are foggy at the moment), so this could be one theory, but it would be only a theory. Beyond that, there are many production factors people point to and, of course, just good old OBE ("old bottle effect").

 

For me, the bottom line is that great bourbon was made in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s and great bourbon is being made today. What is perhaps a glaring difference is which products the best barrels are being dumped into. In those good old days, many distillers had only one or two expressions of their premium brands. Often they made only a bonded version and a lower proof version (often a progression as time went on, say from 90 to 86 to 80).

 

Let's take the Van Winkles and their wheated bourbon. VVOF at 12 years and 100 proof is held up by some as one of the pinnacles of bourbon. Today we have Pappy Van Winkle 15 at 107 proof and, while not a "Van Winkle," William Larue Weller at 12 years and barrel proof. Are PVW 15 and WLW better than VVOF? I don't know, but I do know that they are generally truly great bourbons. The problem is that they are very difficult to get a hold of and often absurdly expensive. For another example, again look at Turkey. Wild Turkey 12/101 from the 80's and early 90s is the best bourbon I have ever had. The current Wild Turkey 12/101 and Russell's Reserve 13 BP are also great bourbons. While yes, I would take the former, the latter two are great. But one is export only and the other is difficult to find at MSRP, which is now up to $150. I have also compared on this board a 1992 WT 101 and a recent bottling. The former is better, but the whiskey was older and went in the barrel lower. So is that comparing like with like, even if they are the "same" expression?

 

I love the old dusty hunting threads on this board from years ago. It would be wonderful to hear from those hunters on this issue, but alas most have moved on. I know a few are still left and, for some reason, they often go by Joe.

 

Lastly, I'll point out a significant error in the article (at least to me) - Van Winkle rye was not sourced from Stitzel-Weller stocks. Dig back far enough and you will find Julian saying so on this board.

The vintage Van Winkle ryes were sourced from Old Bernheim if I am not mistaken per Julian.

 

[Jazz June]

1 hour ago, VWIndy said:

The vintage Van Winkle ryes were sourced from Old Bernheim if I am not mistaken per Julian.

 

Julian said on here “S/W never distilled any rye for me or anybody. The present rye in the F & G bottles is a marriage of two different rye distillations.” He also said it was distilled in 1984 and 1985, so Old Bernheim could certainly be a source.

[PaulO]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:52 PM, fishnbowljoe said:

I started drinking Dant BIB after finding some at a store in KY on one of my first trips to Bardstown. It was a pleasant surprise. This was before the bourbon boom, and it must have flown under the radar. On other trips we’d stop at liquor stores and grocery stores after we visited distilleries. We kept finding it. I bought a bunch over the years. Finished a bunch, shared some, and still have two left. Both are 375’s, one is tax stamped from 1984.

 

 

 

I found a store that has a good deal on the 1L bottles, but last time they were out.

Dant reminds me of fresh rye bread from a bakery.

[Jazzhead]

This evening I'm sipping a last dram of a Bakers single barrel, before mixing the rest into a solara bottle.   This Bakers was disappointing, with muted peanut brittle but overall harsh and unbalanced.  I wish Bakers was still a small batch product;  single barrels hold no special allure for me over batches intended to achieve the taste profile.   

 

There are exceptions,  I'm a sucker for WTKS.  

 

But pricey Beam juice needs to taste better than this,  even the Bookers I have open (Kentucky Tea batch)  is not one of their better ones.    Maybe I'll dig up my last bunkered JBDistillers Cut.

  

Edited September 29, 2023 by Jazzhead

[Jazzhead]

UCUF remains very good stuff, maybe just a bit behind cherry bottles of Belle Meade Reserve when it comes to MGP high-rye.

[fishnbowljoe]

On 9/26/2023 at 10:52 PM, fishnbowljoe said:

I started drinking Dant BIB after finding some at a store in KY on one of my first trips to Bardstown. It was a pleasant surprise. This was before the bourbon boom, and it must have flown under the radar. On other trips we’d stop at liquor stores and grocery stores after we visited distilleries. We kept finding it. I bought a bunch over the years. Finished a bunch, shared some, and still have two left. Both are 375’s, one is tax stamped from 1984.

 

 

 

You know how you look for something and you can’t find it?  Then you know how you find it when you’re looking for something else?  Well…… Rather than clutter up the new thread, I’ll post this pic here. What a difference 10 years makes.