Jefferson's Reserve Presidential 18

[hn4bourbon]

If you already own those batches and like them then maybe it really doesn't matter what's in the bottles. On the other hand if you, like me, purchased those based upon the stated representation that they contained a certain distillate-and paid a premium price for that distillate, then by Pappy that's what you should get. If it turns out you paid big dollars for an adulterated version then that is a deceptive business practice and should not be tolerated. When the "blender" is brazen enough to admit he played games with some of the bottlings then all bets are off. And for me it's the old "fool me once..."

I did pay just a little bit of a premium for them but have already read that the later batches could be non-all-wheat. So, I went into the purchase knowing I could be paying for something that is not as represented. It's mainly to satisfy my curiosity as to how they taste:) I do agree that their deceptive business practices is absolutely questionable. That is why I no longer buy their products unless I absolutely have to for my curiosity's sake.

[hn4bourbon]

H when it comes to long aged Bourbon I expect a number of us would be hard pressed to pick out details of the mash bill.

Thanks Squire.

This topic seem to still draw a good amount of attention even though the JPS has been gone from the shelves for a little bit now. Definitely doesn't help their reputation going forward.

[P&MLiquorsEric]

The booze business is smoke and mirrors at best, outright outlandish lies and claims at worst.

The biggest companies have constantly diminished quality in favor of profits. Marketing is the one area with high ROI.

To think that bourbon is exempt is ridiculous.

And like most areas of government, to think that they follow up or investigate all info submitted to them is crazy.

They are in place to collect taxes first, ensuring quality is a distant second if #1 is being met.

[Conquistador]

Does anyone know where the red ink, hand-written labeled bottles of JPS18 fall along the release timeline? Were these released along with the laser-printed labeled batches? I know that there were red ink, hand-written labels with the same batch numbers as the laser-printed labels (I have seen batch 10 from both the red ink, hand-written, as well as the laser-printed versions), but don't know if they were released simultaneously or if the red ink versions were possibly the "last batches" referenced by Trey Zoeller in the video. Anyone recall the timing on the releases of the red ink, hand-written labeled JPS18?

I have a batch 10 red ink, but it is with a cousin on the east coast (he picked it up for me about 1.5 years ago, but need to plan a vacation/visit to see him and his family, and pick up the bottle), and I have a batch 13 laser-printed label in my bar that tastes like a full wheater to me. If anyone knows if the red ink hand-written labels came at the end of the JPS18 run of batch releases, I may have to ask my cousin to ship it out to me for a SBS against my batch 13.

[wadewood]

A surprisingly large number of brands on the market today are owned by Non Distilling Producers, essentially all they produce is the brand. There are major distillers who supply the NDPs with bulk Bourbon/Rye whisky, as well as white goods (rum, gin, vodka) by the tanker full or custom bottled.

Actually you don't even need a distiller's license to be an NDP.

[squire]

I'm sure there are a number of Federal requirements, not the least of which would be a Permit to transport flammable liquid. Does the gentleman who owns the Black Maple Hills label have a DSP issued by the State of California? Does Luxco in St. Louis have a DSP issued by the State of Missouri? Luxco owns Yellowstone, Rebel Yell and Ezra Brooks, as well as a number of other brands, but does not own a distillery.

Perhaps I should alter my sweeping statement to say you can operate a NDP without owning a distillery or even a bottling facility.

[tanstaafl2]

Does anyone know where the red ink, hand-written labeled bottles of JPS18 fall along the release timeline? Were these released along with the laser-printed labeled batches? I know that there were red ink, hand-written labels with the same batch numbers as the laser-printed labels (I have seen batch 10 from both the red ink, hand-written, as well as the laser-printed versions), but don't know if they were released simultaneously or if the red ink versions were possibly the "last batches" referenced by Trey Zoeller in the video. Anyone recall the timing on the releases of the red ink, hand-written labeled JPS18?

I have a batch 10 red ink, but it is with a cousin on the east coast (he picked it up for me about 1.5 years ago, but need to plan a vacation/visit to see him and his family, and pick up the bottle), and I have a batch 13 laser-printed label in my bar that tastes like a full wheater to me. If anyone knows if the red ink hand-written labels came at the end of the JPS18 run of batch releases, I may have to ask my cousin to ship it out to me for a SBS against my batch 13.

There was some brief mention of this in the JPS BOTM thread a year or so ago but nothing conclusive about what the different types of label indicated. Other than it was annoying and no insight was forthcoming from Jefferson's.

This latest story about blending in rye bourbon could be related but sadly it seems unlikely we will ever know with any certainty.

[sku]

I'm sure there are a number of Federal requirements, not the least of which would be a Permit to transport flammable liquid. Does the gentleman who owns the Black Maple Hills label have a DSP issued by the State of California? Does Luxco in St. Louis have a DSP issued by the State of Missouri? Luxco owns Yellowstone, Rebel Yell and Ezra Brooks, as well as a number of other brands, but does not own a distillery.

Perhaps I should alter my sweeping statement to say you can operate a NDP without owning a distillery or even a bottling facility.

You need a DSP to produce, bottle, rectify, process or store spirits. CVI, owners of Black Maple Hill may have one, but the BMH bottlings are done under KBD's DSP. Luxco does have one DSP-MO-16.

[squire]

Thanks Sku, I'll try to remember that.

[tigerlam92]

"beginning with Batch 38, the owner of the Jefferson’s label, McLain & Kyne, vatted their remaining Sitzel-Weller barrels with an 18-year-old rye recipe Bourbon, creating what they call a four-grain Bourbon; this was done because the wheated Bourbon was beginning to turn too old, and show some overly tannic and oaky flavor."

From our friends at TPS. FWIW

Just in case people missed it, Kevin stated this a while back in this thread as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[callmeox]

I'm sure there are a number of Federal requirements, not the least of which would be a Permit to transport flammable liquid. Does the gentleman who owns the Black Maple Hills label have a DSP issued by the State of California? Does Luxco in St. Louis have a DSP issued by the State of Missouri? Luxco owns Yellowstone, Rebel Yell and Ezra Brooks, as well as a number of other brands, but does not own a distillery.

Perhaps I should alter my sweeping statement to say you can operate a NDP without owning a distillery or even a bottling facility.

Luxco owns a distillery.

The former Paramount Distilling on Berea Road in Cleveland (DSP-OH-22) is a distilling/warehousing/bottling plant.

[squire]

I don't believe they do any distilling there Scott but my point is you can be an NDP without any plans to actually distill your own product. What say we take this off topic subject to a new thread.

[tanstaafl2]

"beginning with Batch 38, the owner of the Jefferson’s label, McLain & Kyne, vatted their remaining Sitzel-Weller barrels with an 18-year-old rye recipe Bourbon, creating what they call a four-grain Bourbon; this was done because the wheated Bourbon was beginning to turn too old, and show some overly tannic and oaky flavor."

From our friends at TPS. FWIW

Just in case people missed it, Kevin stated this a while back in this thread as well.

Yeah, the problem was batch numbers seemed to be repeating, some in red, some in black, some looking like they were handwritten and some looking like they were printed, with earlier batch numbers showing up long after much higher batch numbers had appeared. Perhaps the vagaries of distribution could account for some of it but it seemed at best a bit odd.

The "Four Grain" designation really should have been noted on the bottle as that was, in my mind at least, a pretty significant change from the original bottling.

[callmeox]

I don't believe they do any distilling there Scott but my point is you can be an NDP without any plans to actually distill your own product. What say we take this off topic subject to a new thread.

Sure, but my point is that it's easier to just stay on topic than to take threads off topic and then try to steer them back.

[squire]

Well, yeah, if four grain is a good thing you would think it would be mentioned, but after all it is the brand that's being sold so we should just take their word the goods are worth the price charged.

Edited February 17, 2014 by squire

[hn4bourbon]

Just in case people missed it, Kevin stated this a while back in this thread as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ChainWhip]

A big thanks to Wade for posting that video - wow!

[Wryguy]

A big thanks to Wade for posting that video - wow!

Not to take credit, because I found it from someone posting the video elsewhere, but I posted the video in this thread. Then Wade posted it over on FB. Which is where I first saw it, posted by someone else.

[wadewood]

A big thanks to Wade for posting that video - wow!

[Wryguy]

The more attention is brought to these shenanigans by Jefferson's, Whistlepig and others, the better. I applaud your efforts in exposing the truth Wade.

[ChainWhip]

Not to take credit, because I found it from someone posting the video elsewhere, but I posted the video in this thread. Then Wade posted it over on FB. Which is where I first saw it, posted by someone else.

Oops... Apparently I mixed my peas and carrots there

[jfw]

Jefferson was tasting the rye/wheat blend at one of the Whiskefests (NY 2011 or 2012?). If I remember correctly, the bottle was clearly labeled with a sticker indicating that it was a blend of a wheated and a rye bourbon and the were representing it as such I never saw a bottle with that sticker at retail.

I can assure you that if you taste a bottle like the one at WF, you will NOT confuse with the other bottling. It was not a successful marriage.

Joe

[Conquistador]

I was reorganizing my liquor cabinet and came across an opened bottle of JPS18, Batch 13, and remembered this old thread. My bottle was first opened July 2013, and quickly consumed by myself, family, and friends down to about 6 or 7 ounces left in the bottle before it got "lost" in the shuffle of about 25 opened bottles. I thought I'd give it another try last night, and I definitely noticed a huge change in my JPS18. A lot less "oomph" from the barrel spiciness; a lot more mellow this time around. I still think this is a very good wheated bourbon, but definitely changed from when the bottle was originally opened. Or was it? I began to think that the discussion in this thread may have influenced my tasting notes by predisposing me to assume my long-ago opened bottle of JPS18 was going to mellow out as much as it seemed. So, in the name of science, I cracked the seal on my bunker, and pulled out a sealed twin JPS18, Batch 13 (bottle numbers were only a few off, too). After cracking the new bottle, I poured 1 ounce from each bottle, into separate glencairns, and let them sit and air out for 15 minutes before tasting.

JPS18, Batch 13 (Bottle opened July 2013, 9 months ago):

On the nose, this is like a candy factory, with a lot of vanilla, cotton candy, and fruitcake soaked in rum and Grand Marnier.

On the palate, the vanilla continues, along with burnt caramel/barrel char flavor notes dominating. There is some dried orange peel balancing out the sweetness, too.

The finish starts out sweet and rich, like I've just finished a decadent dessert. But as the sweetness fades, I get a very slight bitterness that quickly dissipates.

JPS18, Batch 13 (Bottle opened April 2014, freshly cracked for this SBS):

The nose on this fresh bottle has a lot of honey sweetness, and ripe fruit (think honeydew melon).

The palate is much more spicy (but not as spicy as a rye bourbon) with this fresh bottle, with a decent amount of wood (which I didn't really get with the long-opened bottle). I also get a lot more dried orange peel from this fresh bottle.

The finish starts out sweet, but becomes drier than I thought it would be, from my memories of the first bottle.

So, which is better? That's hard to say. I really liked the nose on the fresh bottle much more, because of the added complexity; I could spend a lot of time just nosing the freshly cracked JPS18. However, I thought the old bottle had a much more balanced profile on the palate. And to me, the finish on the old bottle was the winner between the two.

But, yeah, to get back to the original discussion, there is a pretty huge difference between newly opened JPS18 vs. JPS18 that has been opened for a while, at least to me; they are really different bourbons now. But luckily for me, I'm enjoying both of them in their current profiles.

Don't know what happened, but the "life" of my 3 open bottles of JPS 18 seemed to have disappeared (batch 7,8, & 13). Seems like a week or so ago shortly after I opened the bottles, they could have gone head to head with pappy 20 (I drink them neat in a glencairn). The nose was damn near identical. Now, with half the bottle gone in each, the nose has disappeared and it tastes thin. Really sucks for the $$ they run.

I'll say revisit them again and you may be pleasantly surprise. You may have an off day.

It happens to me from time to time when never know what it's something and things you like doesn't taste that amazing anymore but it was just me at that moment.

I would second what tig said. I have those off days as well for some of my favorite pours. From what I've read, these JPS18s improve with time being open. I have a batch 16 that has just been opened. So, I definitely hope it's not going to lose its shine too quickly.

[hn4bourbon]

Had a pour of JPS18 batch 16 from the last couple pours of this bottle that's been open for close to a year and a half. Then had a pour of JPS18 batch 17 from a bottle opened between 6-9 months. Both are very very similar and good. The batch 16 has mellowed quite a bit but still very good. A bit more wood coming through. The batch 17 bottle is still over 3/4 full and taste slightly less woody. Just a bit more rounded and fuller. Really good stuff on both!

[DEelfinn]

It was sort of fun to look back at this thread and see how it evolved. I didn't make it through all 30 pages, but enjoyed what I saw and how it related to my own experiences. I've personally tasted JRPS 18 Red Ink Batch 16, and Black typeface batches 13, and 28. I still haven't tried JRPS 17 (yet). I still love the red ink batch 16, but sitting next to the 13, I could see it was noticeably darker. I tried the batch 13 at a local bar when they had it in stock, and was disappointed by comparison. On the other hand, the batch 28 was a pretty close match in color and flavor profile to the 16 for me, but the last several ounces lost a lot of their oomph.

So I suspect a JRPS will either be good or great depending on the batch, with no way to predict on one I haven't yet tried. At the time I bought it, I thought I overpaid for my Batch 13, but if I saw more of any 18 batch or a 17 on the shelf at those prices, I'd probably pull the trigger.