danz Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 From a public thread:...A few things are curious to me. That WLW is a 12yr product, W12 stocks are being eroded, and even OWA is getting hit now. OK, so, what's happening to the wheaters? Re-purposed for the Pappys of tomorrow? Julian has stated that there will be higher numbers in a few years...I know that it could either be a demand OR a supply problem, but although W12 is valued by drinkers, it's not particularly hit hard by flippers is it? Certainly nobody is flipping OWA successfully? The W12 situation seems to smell of barrel re-purposing a-la-AA10 above more than consumer mania, although certainly W12 does get discussed in a minor grail-like fashion in this community sometimes. Texas residents don't understand that, but from what I've read recently we soon might? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Santana Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 From a public thread:How likely do people think it is that OWA and W12 are being refilled into empty Van Winkle bottles as fakes? At various times, this has seemed like a conspiracy theory question, but what do people currently think about the likelihood, considering how crazy the PVW market has become, the empties trade and the nearly complete disappearance of OWA and W12 from shelves. How would a person avoid a fake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl2 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 From a public thread:How likely do people think it is that OWA and W12 are being refilled into empty Van Winkle bottles as fakes? At various times, this has seemed like a conspiracy theory question, but what do people currently think about the likelihood, considering how crazy the PVW market has become, the empties trade and the nearly complete disappearance of OWA and W12 from shelves. How would a person avoid a fake?Buy from a legitimate retailer and not the secondary market is probably your best way to insure nothing is shady. I am not likely to buy on the secondary market anyway but have a great deal of suspicion when it comes to bars. They already have a reason for serving you from an open bottle and if a place seems to have an unending supply of Pappy or some other hard to find whiskey I have to wonder if they aren't refilling with something else. So much so that I am unlikely to order something "trendy" in a bar I don't have at least some familiarity with. Probably 99% are legit but I have no doubt there are some that are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvd99 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I've had a couple Pappy pours that were questionable from restaurant bars. One really didn't taste like PVW15. I doubt 99% of bars/restaurants are legit, I wouldn't put a % on it, but it seems way too tempting and easy to stretch an open bottle by supplementing it with something else. If we're throwing out percentages, I'd say 99% of people ordering Pappy wouldn't know the difference it it was 75% Pappy and 25% Weller. I'm basically done ordering high end LE bourbons at restaurants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 It is hard to believe they're buying as much as they're selling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjbeggs Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Huckberry.com is giving out one random "Golden ticket" per day, which earns you that day's prize.Today's prize is a bottle of Lot B.You have to purchase something from the site to have a shot at winning, but they do have some cool stuff in their Bar section.I ordered some Bittermilk No.1 https://huckberry.com/store/t/category/home-and-grooming/bar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcbt Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 You have to purchase something from the site to have a shot at winning, What's their return policy?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bin31z Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 To have to buy something to get the "chance" to buy a bottle of the 12 year is insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auracom Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 I've had a couple Pappy pours that were questionable from restaurant bars. One really didn't taste like PVW15. I doubt 99% of bars/restaurants are legit, I wouldn't put a % on it, but it seems way too tempting and easy to stretch an open bottle by supplementing it with something else. If we're throwing out percentages, I'd say 99% of people ordering Pappy wouldn't know the difference it it was 75% Pappy and 25% Weller. I'm basically done ordering high end LE bourbons at restaurants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjbeggs Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 (edited) To have to buy something to get the "chance" to buy a bottle of the 12 year is insane. Edited November 27, 2014 by kjbeggs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amg Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Technically, you didn't have to buy, you could just enter by email, and it wasn't to buy it, the winner gets a free bottle. I wanted the Bittermilk, and Amazon has been out of stock, so I ordered it from there.And there are lots of bourbon drinkers who buy things all year to enhance their "chance" at an opportunity to buy some PVW or BTAC. Yeah, go into a liquor store that you've never bought anything from and see what your "chance" of getting it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicktrav Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 I've often wondered about pouring fake Pappys at bars. It would be so easy to get away with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 I've often wondered about pouring fake Pappys at bars. It would be so easy to get away with.Until you taste it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amg Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Until you taste it...How many people who order Pappy at a bar know what it's supposed to taste like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nd2005 Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Until you taste it...Have you ever heard of The Emperor's New Clothes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicktrav Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 (edited) Something like Stagg would be hard to fake because it's a monster proof with few substitutes. Pappy isn't like that. There's nothing really unique about it apart from it being very elegantly executed. I think it would be very easy to fake. Maybe the 23 would be harder because of the age. But the 15 and the 20 could definitely be faked. Edited November 29, 2014 by bicktrav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvd99 Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Filling a half empty GTS with a few ounces of Stagg Jr. or some other barrel proofer of a similar recipe/profile would not be that hard. I still believe that 99% of people would never know if any LE was diluted with something else. Sure, some SBers would probably suspect something, but those with the knowledge to do so are so minute and that it would be worth the risk for the bar to make a few hundred more per bottle. Plus, there's no way to really prove that the contents are not original, then what do you do? Mrs. Jvd99 ordered me a Pappy flight at a nice restaurant in Chicago last year and the 15 tasted like HH, the 20 & 23 tasted like the real deal. The wife doesn't drink, but even she could smell that there was a huge difference in profile. We discussed the situation and decided not to do anything and just have a nice dinner rather than make a stink in a crowded restaurant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danz Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I agree, jvd. I think for most people, other than a very few whiskey geeks, you could add a lot more than a few ounces of Jr. to a bottle. I had a PVW 15 with my father in Louisville this summer at a well-known bar and the proof and flavor seemed a lot milder than what I recall from earlier tastings. It's pretty much impossible to prove that anything is off, if a bar is careful about their shenanigans. That and the crowd of undesirables following the limited editions these days has led me to the position that I probably won't buy any bottles of limited editions after this year and I would only taste them at 2 or 3 bars in the country where I know owners/managers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nd2005 Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I think it's even easier than that.99% of the people buying it are doing so purely on the name, and probably don't even know much about bourbon at all, much less how PVW actually tastes. They'll order it on the rocks, take their first sip, then broadly proclaim to everyone they are with how "amazing" and "smooth" it is.For the 1% who do suspect something is off, they'd have to be pretty confident in that evaluation to speak up about it. I've been humbled by enough blind tastings myself that I'm not sure I'd have the confidence to say something...I think a bar could probably refill their PVW bottles with Maker's Mark and get away with it if they wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPPSmoker Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I got shutout on the Van Winkle and BTAC products this year. I went to a store raffle today where they had approximately 20 bottles of VW/BTAC and about 60 people showed up. I'm guessing at least half wouldn't know a good bourbon if it jumped up and bit them in the ass. Oh well, it is what it is. I certainly can't complain about my bourbon purchases this year. It's been a good year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl2 Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I am beginning to wonder how many bars that either had none were legit how many "unpure" thoughts we might be giving them by saying how easy it would be...:shocked: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danz Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 From what I've seen in this and other areas, I'm not too worried about giving bad ideas to those without the moral core to reject them. I also think that hoping the immoral are also ignorant is not a good strategy to defend against them. I think it's more likely as consumers become more educated about whiskey, and the risk of fraud, that operating successful frauds will become more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Comp Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 It was years ago but in my 5 years of bartending at upscale and dive joints and even in notorious Cook County IL, and in places where what happenes there stays there, I never saw any refilling of bottles. Managers or owners would look and have us look the other way on underage patrons, bookies doing business, people coming out of bathrooms with powder on their face BUT it was understood don't mess with a liquor bottle. Something about that 3 tier system and those distributors keeping an eye on everything which creates saints :cool:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrant77 Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 re: the earlier discussion about having liquor stores auction off the bottles with proceeds going to charity, here's a news story where one stores already does that: http://www.wdrb.com/story/27506880/westport-whiskey-and-wine-taking-bids-on-pappy-van-winkle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P&MLiquorsEric Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Our event went well. No complaints were voiced to me. Only 4 or 5 left once the pappy was gone.We offered a 10% discount on non lottery items which led to a fair amount of add on sales. We will do it again next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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