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ethangsmith

Speaking of ruffled feathers----

Fighting Cock is a product of Heaven Hill and is advertised to have more rye for that extra kick- even says so on the FC website. So is FC its own mashbill or, like Buffalo Trace, does Heaven Hill have a "low rye content" and "high rye content" bourbon mashbill????

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Josh
Speaking of ruffled feathers----

Fighting Cock is a product of Heaven Hill and is advertised to have more rye for that extra kick- even says so on the FC website. So is FC its own mashbill or, like Buffalo Trace, does Heaven Hill have a "low rye content" and "high rye content" bourbon mashbill????

That's something I've been thinking about lately myself. The Heaven Hill line seems to have more rye flavor than Evan Williams or Elijah Craig too. But nobody has ever offered any evidence that they have two mashbills.

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ethangsmith

I have a bottle of the Old Heaven Hill BIB and HH Old Style Bourbon in 80pf form and both seem to have a good chunk of rye in them. The OHH BIB is super peppery and when drank right next to Mellow Corn (same proof, but with no rye), you get a strong rye flavor in the OHH BIB. I agree with your thinking on Evan Williams and Elijah Craig too. There does not seem to be much rye flavor with them at all. I did a side-by-side tasting of Fighting Cock and Wild Turkey 101 bourbon and there is little difference. The heavy rye presence is the same between the two. There almost has to be at least 2 different mashbills at HH.

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Josh
I have a bottle of the Old Heaven Hill BIB and HH Old Style Bourbon in 80pf form and both seem to have a good chunk of rye in them. The OHH BIB is super peppery and when drank right next to Mellow Corn (same proof, but with no rye), you get a strong rye flavor in the OHH BIB. I agree with your thinking on Evan Williams and Elijah Craig too. There does not seem to be much rye flavor with them at all. I did a side-by-side tasting of Fighting Cock and Wild Turkey 101 bourbon and there is little difference. The heavy rye presence is the same between the two. There almost has to be at least 2 different mashbills at HH.

In the absence of any evidence that there are multiple rye bourbon mashbills, I think we have to chalk it up to barrel selection, imo the second most neglected variant in why whiskey tastes how it does. A lot of magic goes on in a barrel and it's not always quantifiable.

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ethangsmith

A good point. It's amazing to see the difference proof and aging do to a product. Take for instance Pikesville rye versus Rittenhouse BIB rye. Same rye, but totally different profiles. It's just going to be really hard for me to think that Fighting Cock is just 6yo 103 proof Evan Williams. Odd.

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White Dog

I just went to the FC site.

It states, "Most Bourbon is made from a grain mixture of corn, barley and wheat. We use Rye instead of wheat to give Fighting Cock a little extra kick."

"Most Bourbon..." Shame on you, Heaven Hill. You know that this is a blatant lie. Would any of the HH employees who visit and post on SB care to comment on this?

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ethangsmith

Weird. I wonder why they made that claim, which is obviously incorrect.

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White Dog
Weird. I wonder why they made that claim, which is obviously incorrect.

C'mon Ethan. When has the Kentucky Bourbon industry actually tried to educate the consumer??:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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ethangsmith

Ha. Too true. I think it's sort of fun to speculate at certain things. Others, not so much.

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cowdery

Not so much a "blatant lie" as blatantly stupid. Really starting to wonder about the bile, White Dog. If you get so angry about this, how much outrage can you have left for real crimes?

And they call me crotchety.

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cowdery
Speaking of ruffled feathers----

Fighting Cock is a product of Heaven Hill and is advertised to have more rye for that extra kick- even says so on the FC website. So is FC its own mashbill or, like Buffalo Trace, does Heaven Hill have a "low rye content" and "high rye content" bourbon mashbill????

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ethangsmith

I thought at one time the website had it worded that they use more rye for extra kick. Maybe I was mistaken.

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jcg9779
I just went to the FC site.

It states, "Most Bourbon is made from a grain mixture of corn, barley and wheat. We use Rye instead of wheat to give Fighting Cock a little extra kick."

"Most Bourbon..." Shame on you, Heaven Hill. You know that this is a blatant lie. Would any of the HH employees who visit and post on SB care to comment on this?

Weird. I wonder why they made that claim, which is obviously incorrect.

Product differentiation. Marketing 101, whether it's truthful or not.

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clingman71

I'd be intersted in knowing the % in wheated recipes from HH and BT. How do they compare to Maker's? I would assume through the Old Fitz and Weller recipes going back to S/W and then onto Bernheim before splitting HH & BT that the mashbills are the same. The whiskies however, are not. This would be a good comparison of barrels and aging. The wild card variable would be the yeast. This has been mentioned on here before, but with no real definitive answer. When S/W stopped distilling, and Bernheim began, was the S/W yeast taken to Bernheim? When the Bernheim distillery changed hands to HH, what yeast was used? Does HH use the S/W Bernheim yeast for the wheaters and their own HH yeast for the others? Or, does HH use one yeast for everything? When Bernheim was distilling for HH after the fire, but before the sale, which yeast was being used? DoesBT use one yeast for everything?

The Maker's mashbill has to be similar, showing what age can do. There is a lot of difference between 5? yr old Maker's and 7 yr old WSR.

I've read some of the Four Roses comments on rye vs wheat.Regardless of their philosophy, I would love to see what their 5 yeast strains could do for a wheated mashbill. It would seem to me that with all the talk of new wheaters vs old SW, and the griping about nothing being as good, that Four Roses versatility would lend them to being able to recreate almost any flavor profile.

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Brisko

According to what I've read from various sources, Bill Samuels got the Maker's recipe from Pappy, for what it's worth.

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chasking

Something on here nagged at me. It's stated in the tree, and at other places on SB, that there's only one Beam rye mashbill, but I knew I'd read or heard somewhere that Beam rye and Old Overholt were different, and I finally found the source: Jim Murray, in his book The Complete Guide to Whiskey (Triumph 1997), states:

. . . Jim Beam's is 51 percent rye. The big boy is Old Overholt with an impressive 61 percent rye.

Now, that was at least 15 years ago, but Old Overholt was established as a Beam product at that point, and he must have gotten that information from somewhere.

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White Dog
Something on here nagged at me. It's stated in the tree, and at other places on SB, that there's only one Beam rye mashbill, but I knew I'd read or heard somewhere that Beam rye and Old Overholt were different, and I finally found the source: Jim Murray, in his book The Complete Guide to Whiskey (Triumph 1997), states:

. . . Jim Beam's is 51 percent rye. The big boy is Old Overholt with an impressive 61 percent rye.

Now, that was at least 15 years ago, but Old Overholt was established as a Beam product at that point, and he must have gotten that information from somewhere.

I like Murray's Bible and I keep a copy in my bathroom. That said, in his 2011 version when discussing Pappy 15 he states "classic corn-rye whiskey with a bit of an edge." Page 300. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

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Josh
I'd be intersted in knowing the % in wheated recipes from HH and BT. How do they compare to Maker's? ...When S/W stopped distilling, and Bernheim began, was the S/W yeast taken to Bernheim? When the Bernheim distillery changed hands to HH, what yeast was used? Does HH use the S/W Bernheim yeast for the wheaters and their own HH yeast for the others? Or, does HH use one yeast for everything? When Bernheim was distilling for HH after the fire, but before the sale, which yeast was being used? DoesBT use one yeast for everything?
According to what I've read from various sources, Bill Samuels got the Maker's recipe from Pappy, for what it's worth.

That's my impression too, that all the wheaters have the same mashbill. The yeast question is an interesting one. Chuck suggested above that Ed Foote might know what happened to the S-W yeast after S-W stopped distilling. I don't really have the time to pursue that question right now, but if anyone else would like to, go for it!

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Josh
Something on here nagged at me. It's stated in the tree, and at other places on SB, that there's only one Beam rye mashbill, but I knew I'd read or heard somewhere that Beam rye and Old Overholt were different, and I finally found the source: Jim Murray, in his book The Complete Guide to Whiskey (Triumph 1997), states:

. . . Jim Beam's is 51 percent rye. The big boy is Old Overholt with an impressive 61 percent rye.

Now, that was at least 15 years ago, but Old Overholt was established as a Beam product at that point, and he must have gotten that information from somewhere.

I like Murray's Bible and I keep a copy in my bathroom. That said, in his 2011 version when discussing Pappy 15 he states "classic corn-rye whiskey with a bit of an edge." Page 300. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

If anyone finds another source that supports the claim that Beam OO is 61% rye I'll change the tree to reflect that. He may have gotten the information from OO's previous producer and forgot to update it. In a book that sweeping, some errors are bound to get in.

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T Comp
Something on here nagged at me. It's stated in the tree, and at other places on SB, that there's only one Beam rye mashbill, but I knew I'd read or heard somewhere that Beam rye and Old Overholt were different, and I finally found the source: Jim Murray, in his book The Complete Guide to Whiskey (Triumph 1997), states:

. . . Jim Beam's is 51 percent rye. The big boy is Old Overholt with an impressive 61 percent rye.

Now, that was at least 15 years ago, but Old Overholt was established as a Beam product at that point, and he must have gotten that information from somewhere.

Interesting point...but even better...following on the heels of, CrispyCritter, another Chicago area member and his first post in 4 years, now comes chasking after a 3 year hiatus. Great to see you guys back and try to make it to the South Loop Binny's on 3/10/12.

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Josh

OK so regarding the Bowman mashbill, I'm a bit confused. Based on this post from Mozilla, I listed it as BT mashbill #2, same as AAA, ETL, et al.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=135324&postcount=12

But the more I think about it the less it makes sense. Sazerac owns Bowman. The only rye bourbon mashbill Saz uses for its own products is BT mashbill #1, so it would seem natural that they would send that one to Bowman for redistillation and aging.

Anybody else have any thoughts or information? Especially if your name is Truman...

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CorvallisCracker
I like Murray's Bible and I keep a copy in my bathroom.

How many pages are left?

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BradleyC
OK so regarding the Bowman mashbill, I'm a bit confused. Based on this post from Mozilla, I listed it as BT mashbill #2, same as AAA, ETL, et al.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=135324&postcount=12

But the more I think about it the less it makes sense. Sazerac owns Bowman. The only rye bourbon mashbill Saz uses for its own products is BT mashbill #1, so it would seem natural that they would send that one to Bowman for redistillation and aging.

Anybody else have any thoughts or information? Especially if your name is Truman...

My name isn't Truman but as applies to the 18 year bottle I found this:

" At 18 years old, this bourbon pre-dates the purchase of Bowman by Buffalo Trace so where this bourbon came from is a bit of a mystery"

I guess the 18 year bottling could be a completely different distillate from the regular Bowman line. Call me crazy but I thought I had read on PS' website something about being mashbill #2.

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Bourbon Boiler
How many pages are left?

Funny. A little mean, but very funny.:slappin:

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Parkersback

Forgive me if this has been addressed in this thread--I have basically read it as it was posted, but I did not wade through just now to check--but Jim Beam implies that the yeast for Baker's is unique to Baker's. Whether that is true or not, I do not know.

I'm not sure that really changes the mashbill, but under 4Roses, mention is made of their various yeast.

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