Whiskey Tree

[Josh]

Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 5.1

Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave

Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???

1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???

Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown

Rye 37/53/10? (speculation based on label of High West Double Rye!)- Fleischman's Rye

Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Independent Stave

Beam Mashbill (76/13/10)- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's

Old Grandad Mashbill (63/27/10)- OGD, Basil Hayden

Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Ri¹, Knob Creek Rye

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage

Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve

Early Times (79/11/10)

Jack Daniels (80/8/12)

Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.

Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave

#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg

#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?

Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*

Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye, Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye* (?)

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave

Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char, Independent Stave

Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.

All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)

OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch

OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel

All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here.

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave

Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), etc. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.

Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.

Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original

Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Pikesville, Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)

Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*

Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?

Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the MGP website: http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave

Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave

Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon

Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye

Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:

Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?

Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.

Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (20 & 23 only?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18, Vintage 17 etc

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig, Jefferson's and Masterson's Rye. Jefferson's may be switching to American-made rye.

*Brand(s) not wholly owned by the distiller.

**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

How much Stitzel-Weller is in Pappys 20 & 23, if any? Also how much of what is being marketed as S-W was really made at Bernheim?

How much Medley and Cream of Kentucky Rye does VWFRR contain, and how much Buffalo Trace distillate?

Are the Bowman bourbons really made from mashbill #2?

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! Post it here so it can be corrected.

[Lazer]

Wow, Now that's what I call a menu!:grin:

[Josh]

And the corrections continue to roll in, which is a good thing!:cool:

----------------------------------------------------

Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 5.2

Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave

Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???

1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???

Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown

Rye 37/53/10? (speculation based on label of High West Double Rye!)- Fleischman's Rye

Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Independent Stave

Beam Mashbill (76/13/10)- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's

Old Grandad Mashbill (63/27/10)- OGD, Basil Hayden

Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Ri¹, Knob Creek Rye

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage

Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve

Early Times (79/11/10)

Jack Daniels (80/8/12)

Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.

Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave

#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg

#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?

Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*

Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye, Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye* (?)

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave

Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char, Independent Stave

Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.

All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)

OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch

OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel

All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here.

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave

Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), etc. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.

Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.

Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original

Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Pikesville, Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)

Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Dixie Dew, Platte Valley*

Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?

Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the MGP website: http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave

Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave

Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon

Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye

Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:

Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?

Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.

Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (20 & 23 only?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18, Vintage 17 etc

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig, Jefferson's and Masterson's Rye. Jefferson's may be switching to American-made rye.

*Brand(s) not wholly owned by the distiller.

**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

How much Stitzel-Weller is in Pappys 20 & 23, if any? Also how much of what is being marketed as S-W was really made at Bernheim?

How much Medley and Cream of Kentucky Rye does VWFRR contain, and how much Buffalo Trace distillate?

Are the Bowman bourbons really made from mashbill #2?

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! Post it here so it can be corrected.

[AaronWF]

Josh, I don't want to trouble you with more additions here, but in the interest of thoroughness, it occurs to me that you might want to include the High West products that come from Barton and Four Roses.

Barton: 10/80/10 in Rendezvous Rye and 16yo Rocky Mountain Rye

Four Roses: 10yo E recipe (can't find which one) in Bourye and 5yo E recipe in Son of Bourye.

This info may be peripheral to the point of your tree, so feel free to ignore!

[Restaurant man]

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave

#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?

Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*

so should I get" a strong family resemblance between all these whiskies? I definitely do between lot b and Elmer t lee. I was shocked when I tasted etl for the first time tonight how similar it was to lob b. The rest of em, not so sure. Don't remember any resemblance to blantons though. Where is the point of difference? Is it all just age and barrel placement?

[dbk]

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave

#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?

Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*

so should I get" a strong family resemblance between all these whiskies? I definitely do between lot b and Elmer t lee. I was shocked when I tasted etl for the first time tonight how similar it was to lob b. The rest of em, not so sure. Don't remember any resemblance to blantons though. Where is the point of difference? Is it all just age and barrel placement?

[Josh]

Barton: 10/80/10 in Rendezvous Rye and 16yo Rocky Mountain Rye

Four Roses: 10yo E recipe (can't find which one) in Bourye and 5yo E recipe in Son of Bourye.

This info may be peripheral to the point of your tree, so feel free to ignore!

Thanks for the info! I'll give some thought to how to best work that in.

so should I get" a strong family resemblance between all these whiskies? I definitely do between lot b and Elmer t lee. I was shocked when I tasted etl for the first time tonight how similar it was to lob b. The rest of em, not so sure. Don't remember any resemblance to blantons though. Where is the point of difference? Is it all just age and barrel placement?

In the case of Blanton's, every barrel that goes into Blanton's is from the only warehouse on the property that is of the metal-clad type, warehouse H. The others, IIRC are all brick.

The biggest difference, as Aaron pointed out is that Lot B is a wheater and ETL is not. I haven't noticed a lot of similarities between the two myself, but they may very well be aged in the same warehouses or in similar positions within those warehouses.

To me, Blanton's is much more tannic than AAA 10 y/o, ETL or RHF. One bottle I had was like walking into Wilson's at the Mall.

[sutton]

To me, Blanton's is much more tannic than AAA 10 y/o, ETL or RHF. One bottle I had was like walking into Wilson's at the Mall.

What a great simile! Will have to remember that one ... I think I can smell it now ... :grin:

[White Dog]

Must bump, as I saw another posted question that is in need of this thread, which is "The Most Deserving Sticky Thread, but Alas, Remains None-Sticky."

[Restaurant man]

Normally, I would say you should see some similarities among the whiskies produced by the same distillery. But that you have so far only spotted a resemblance between Elmer T. Lee and Van Winkle "Lot B" is, well, peculiar.

Yes, barrel location and age will affect similarity among whiskies, and ETL is reputedly around the same age as the Lot B (10-14 years). However, the mash bill, yeast, type of still, proof off the still, barrel entry proof, and barrel char will also play a part, and that list is hardly exhaustive. I suspect most of us would find the closest resemblance among the whiskies with the same mash bill and yeast, but these will also tend to have the same proof off the still, barrel entry proof, and barrel char, as they come from the same distillery. As a consumer, it's actually hard to know what variables matter (and how) without the sort of work being done by Buffalo Trace with their Single Oak project.

It's also possible that your palate is "calibrated" differently from others. Most of us have tasted many whiskies from many distilleries, and so have a sense of the range among them, which can also help to define a distillery "character." For instance, I don't have much trouble discriminating Buffalo Trace, Heaven Hill, Beam, or Four Roses products from one another. To me, Buffalo Trace and Eagle Rare 10 are certainly similar when tasted head to head, and the same goes for Booker's vs. Baker's vs. Knob Creek, or any of the Four Roses single barrels (w/ different mash bills and yeasts, no less). Mixing and matching between distilleries, however, shows how different they can be (though surprisingly less often than you might think).

All of this to say that you might profit from arranging a few head to head tastings of your own, using comparison whiskies from both the same and different distilleries, as well as similar vs. different mash bills, ages, etc. I've learned a lot that way.

Wow! your answer leaps to a lot of conclusions about my knowledge of the subject. Thank you for being the expert that you are and taking the time to educate dolts like myself. you are a true humanitarian!

[Restaurant man]

Wow! your answer leaps to a lot of conclusions about my knowledge of the subject. Thank you for being the expert that you are and taking the time to educate dolts like myself. you are a true humanitarian!

That was supposed to be tongue and cheek but on second read I sounded like a doosh. sorry

[boss302]

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?

Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the LDI website: http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersind...om/Custom.aspx

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! post it here so it can be corrected.

[White Dog]

This thread is still not sticky?? Really?:fish2: :fish2: :fish2:

Scott, Paul and Mr. Gorbachev, please tear down this wall!:cool:

[Sylvan]

Love the Whiskey Tree! Found it in the preparation of a similar list. Couple of possible corrections from other sources:

George Dickel from (80/12/8) to (84/8/8)

http://www.alcademics.com/2012/06/distillery-visit-george-dickel.html

Jack Daniels from (80/8/12) to (80/12/8)

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2011/11/what-do-terns-high-rye-and-low-rye-mean.html

Bulleit Bourbon (68/28/4)

http://scotchhobbyist.com/2010/02/04/bulleit-bourbon-tasting/

[White Dog]

Love the Whiskey Tree! Found it in the preparation of a similar list. Couple of possible corrections from other sources:

George Dickel from (80/12/8) to (84/8/8)

http://www.alcademics.com/2012/06/distillery-visit-george-dickel.html

Jack Daniels from (80/8/12) to (80/12/8)

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2011/11/what-do-terns-high-rye-and-low-rye-mean.html

Bulleit Bourbon (68/28/4)

http://scotchhobbyist.com/2010/02/04/bulleit-bourbon-tasting/

Tis a great thread. But if you need to know the Bulleit mashbills, simply visit the 4R and LDI websites. Don't believe a blogger who's drinking the kool-aid.

[ethangsmith]

Your Beam bourbon mashbill does not equal 100......

[MyOldKyDram]

Pfft, math.

Loving the whiskey tree!

[ethangsmith]

Haha.

I'd agree, this is probably the most handy and most comprehensive undertaking on the net when it comes to American whiskey!!!

[Josh]

I was told there would be no math.

[Smithford]

Adding something, yet nothing at all ...

At a recent bourbon tasting in Toronto, Harlen Wheatley said this:

"1792 is the highest rye bourbon that we [sazerac] offer. We have 3 different Rye bourbons. ... It's almost close to maybe a Rye Whiskey. It's not Rye Whiskey, it's a bourbon. But it's close." The latter bit was speaking about the taste, not the mashbill.

[Josh]

Adding something, yet nothing at all ...

At a recent bourbon tasting in Toronto, Harlen Wheatley said this:

"1792 is the highest rye bourbon that we [sazerac] offer. We have 3 different Rye bourbons. ... It's almost close to maybe a Rye Whiskey. It's not Rye Whiskey, it's a bourbon. But it's close." The latter bit was speaking about the taste, not the mashbill.

What a weird thing for Harlan to say. They have at least 4 rye bourbon mashbills in regular production. Three if BT #2 is excluded, I guess. As for the "highest rye" bit, VOB I could believe, but 1792? Doesn't taste anything like a rye to me. Oh well, different strokes & all that. Thanks for the information Smithford!

Edited June 21, 2012 by Josh

[Josh]

Pfft, math.

Loving the whiskey tree!

Haha.

I'd agree, this is probably the most handy and most comprehensive undertaking on the net when it comes to American whiskey!!!

Also, Thanks guys!

:fish2: :fish2: :fish2: :fish2: :fish2: :fish2: :fish2: :fish2:

[Smithford]

What a weird thing for Harlan to say. They have at least 4 rye bourbon mashbills in regular production. Three if BT #2 is excluded, I guess.

Yes. It wasn't, since Blanton's Gold was part of the tasting event. Perhaps he meant he was presenting 3 that night.

As for the "highest rye" bit, VOB I could believe, but 1792? Doesn't taste anything like a rye to me.

Yeah, it doesn't taste like much of anything to me ...

[White Dog]

What a weird thing for Harlan to say. They have at least 4 rye bourbon mashbills in regular production. Three if BT #2 is excluded, I guess. As for the "highest rye" bit, VOB I could believe, but 1792? Doesn't taste anything like a rye to me. Oh well, different strokes & all that. Thanks for the information Smithford!

It's very weird, as Harlan would never say anything contradictory.:skep::skep:

[Restaurant man]

It's very weird, as Harlan would never say anything contradictory.:skep::skep:

He's a riddle wrapped in an enigma