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Lazer

Has anybody memorized the entire whiskey tree yet?

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Yeti

There's a new Brew Pub that opened here this weekend and the whiskey list boldly proclaims that Maker's Mark is a 51/49 wheat bourbon.

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chasking

If the reason the actual data for LDI is not in the tree is simply because nobody's bothered to type it up, here it is:

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?

Wheat Bourbon (51/45/4)

Malt Bourbon (51/0/49)

Lower Rye Bourbon (75/21/4)

Higher Rye Bourbon (60/36/4) - Smooth Ambler Old Scout*?

Corn Bourbon (99/0/1)

Corn Whiskey (81/15/4)

Malt Whiskey (0/0/100)

Rye Whiskey (0/51/49)

51% Rye Whiskey (45/51/4) – Templeton Rye*?

95% Rye Whiskey (0/95/5) – Bulleit Rye*

95% Wheat Whiskey (0/95/5)

Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), and KBD

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Yeti

The new TPS single barrel SA Old Scouts are the 21% low rye bourbons. Don't know how that translates to the primary line.

Edit: The older TPS 7 year bottles are the 36%. That's probably what the standard issue is as well. But it makes me wonder about VOS.

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brettckeen

chasking i believe the templeton is the 95 5 aswell

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qman22
The new TPS single barrel SA Old Scouts are the 21% low rye bourbons. Don't know how that translates to the primary line.

Edit: The older TPS 7 year bottles are the 36%. That's probably what the standard issue is as well. But it makes me wonder about VOS.

I'm pretty sure VOS is the 21% rye as well. I remember reading that sometime around their release.

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Mrvinal

The link doesn't work. Anywhere else I can get it. I want a copy for my whiskey club meeting tonight.

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Josh
The link doesn't work. Anywhere else I can get it. I want a copy for my whiskey club meeting tonight.
Which one doesn't work? The MGPI one?

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Josh
If the reason the actual data for LDI is not in the tree is simply because nobody's bothered to type it up, here it is:

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?

Wheat Bourbon (51/45/4)

Malt Bourbon (51/0/49)

Lower Rye Bourbon (75/21/4)

Higher Rye Bourbon (60/36/4) - Smooth Ambler Old Scout*?

Corn Bourbon (99/0/1)

Corn Whiskey (81/15/4)

Malt Whiskey (0/0/100)

Rye Whiskey (0/51/49)

51% Rye Whiskey (45/51/4) – Templeton Rye*?

95% Rye Whiskey (0/95/5) – Bulleit Rye*

95% Wheat Whiskey (0/95/5)

Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), and KBD

That would be why. Thanks for typing it up! I don't think I will include the mashbills without products attached in the next edition, but it is all here in the thread for anyone to see. Thanks!

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andykeck
If the reason the actual data for LDI is not in the tree is simply because nobody's bothered to type it up, here it is:

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?

)

Rye Whiskey (0/51/49)

51% Rye Whiskey (45/51/4) – Templeton Rye*?

95% Rye Whiskey (0/95/5) – Bulleit Rye*

Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), and KBD

For the record, the Templeton website still says they're the 95% rye mashbill. Well actually, they say 90+% specifically, but we all know what that leaves.

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tanstaafl2
That would be why. Thanks for typing it up! I don't think I will include the mashbills without products attached in the next edition, but it is all here in the thread for anyone to see. Thanks!

I don't think any of the new mash bills likely have a product associated with them yet because they are so new. Should probably distinguish them from the original mash bills.

MGP (formerly LDI), ??? char, Independent Stave?

Original mash bills

Lower Rye Bourbon (75/21/4)

Higher Rye Bourbon (60/36/4) - Smooth Ambler Old Scout*?

Corn Bourbon (99/0/1)

"Light" Whiskey (99/0/1) - Not clear what this is. Unaged?

Corn Whiskey (81/15/4)

95% Rye Whiskey (0/95/5) – Bulleit Rye*, Templeton Rye*?

New mash bills - As of April 2013

Rye Whiskey (0/51/49)

Rye Whiskey (45/51/4)

95% Wheat Whiskey (0/95/5)

100% Barley Malt Whiskey (0/0/100)

Wheat Bourbon (51/45/4)

Barley Malt Bourbon (51/0/49)

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Josh

Thanks to everybody for all the posts regarding the MGPI mashbills I really think that to keep this from spinning out of control, the tree needs to stick to mashbills and other data that goes with products actually on the shelves. Including products that used to exist or may exist in the future is a black hole from which there is no escape.

I'll update the tree this week if I can.

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TunnelTiger

CW - thanks for this view - totally cool.

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tanstaafl2

Interesting but suggests a lack of true whiskey nerdiness was involved in the creation! Also interesting that they show a lack of separation between BF and HH while most everything else has a line separating them where appropriate.

For example while it may soon be true the current Saz 18 and VWFRR don't really belong on the same branch of the BT tree do they? And the two older Pappy's are in a state of transition from one branch to another.

Four roses ought to have ten trunks with branches growing to gether rather like a Banyan tree!

Old Fitz seems to branch off a wee bit early on the HH tree for some reason.

JD rye doesn't rate a mention while Dickel Rye, Jacob's Ghost and other white dogs make an appearance.

And I guess they have no clue what to do with the various CEHT or PHC expersions!

Edited by tanstaafl2

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MauiSon

It does help to emphasize the rarity of well-aged stock, tho.

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ChainWhip

For example while it may soon be true the current Saz 18 and VWFRR don't really belong on the same branch of the BT tree do they? And the two older Pappy's are in a state of transition from one branch to another.

Well put B! Honestly, I'd like to see a time-elapse GIF of this illustration with the expressions jumping between different distilleries/trees over time.

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Josh
Well put B! Honestly, I'd like to see a time-elapse GIF of this illustration with the expressions jumping between different distilleries/trees over time.
That what make a fun chart even more fun! Thanks for sharing that! Very cool.

Hoping to post the new version soon. Gonna add the known MGPI mashbills and take away the (high barley?) speculation from Barton-1792 section.

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GaryT

I wondered about the placement of some, like the ETL looks like it well below Blantons and AAA 10 yr, when ETL is bottled (at least recently) closer to 9 yrs (and I read somewhere that Harlen said Blantons was typically in the 6-8 yr range). Interesting display of information though!

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kickert
Interesting but suggests a lack of true whiskey nerdiness was involved in the creation!

Perhaps, but as mainstream publications go, this one is SIGNIFICANTLY better than most. There are no gross misrepresentations or complete lunacy. Perhaps not the most detailed, but it gives an accurate picture of the industry and what comes from where.

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shoshani

That tree view is fascinating - I love how some related branches wrap, and how Willett mostly has a ghost tree. But it is missing things. Just from my quick observation:

There is no rye branch for Wild Turkey at all despite at least three expressions (WT101, WT81, RR). Edit: Russell's Reserve is also misspelled, leaving an L out of Russell.

A lot of cats-and-dogs labels are missing, especially from Barton and Heaven Hill. This is probably due to both space consideration and lack of product awareness of those labels amongst GQ's trendy audience.

Parker's Heritage Collection is missing from the Heaven Hill tree, but the graphic includes similar high-end offerings from Buffalo Trace and Woodford Reserve.

The Bulleit branch of the Four Roses Tree intertwines with a branch from the George Dickel tree, when it should logically extend further over to intertwine with a rye branch of the MGPI tree for the Bulleit Rye. (The error could stand on a technicality, since Bulleit is owned by Diageo which also owns Dickel, but the graphic doesn't mention that.)

A graphic similar to this but taking into account the breadth and scope of the list we have here would be fascinating. And probably eyestrain-inducing. :)

Edited by shoshani

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Kalessin
Interesting but suggests a lack of true whiskey nerdiness was involved in the creation! Also interesting that they show a lack of separation between BF and HH while most everything else has a line separating them where appropriate.

Four roses ought to have ten trunks with branches growing to gether rather like a Banyan tree!

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HP12
And the corrections continue to roll in, which is a good thing!:cool:

----------------------------------------------------

Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 5.2

Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave

Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???

1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???

Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown

Rye 37/53/10? (speculation based on label of High West Double Rye!)- Fleischman's Rye

Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Independent Stave

Beam Mashbill (76/13/10)- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's

Old Grandad Mashbill (63/27/10)- OGD, Basil Hayden

Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Ri¹, Knob Creek Rye

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage

Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve

Early Times (79/11/10)

Jack Daniels (80/8/12)

Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.

Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave

#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg

#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?

Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*

Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye, Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye* (?)

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave

Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char, Independent Stave

Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.

All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)

OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch

OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel

All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here.

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave

Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), etc. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.

Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.

Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original

Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Pikesville, Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)

Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Dixie Dew, Platte Valley*

Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?

Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the MGP website: http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave

Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave

Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon

Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye

Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:

Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?

Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.

Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (20 & 23 only?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18, Vintage 17 etc

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig, Jefferson's and Masterson's Rye. Jefferson's may be switching to American-made rye.

*Brand(s) not wholly owned by the distiller.

**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

How much Stitzel-Weller is in Pappys 20 & 23, if any? Also how much of what is being marketed as S-W was really made at Bernheim?

How much Medley and Cream of Kentucky Rye does VWFRR contain, and how much Buffalo Trace distillate?

Are the Bowman bourbons really made from mashbill #2?

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! Post it here so it can be corrected.

--------------------------------------------------------

Time for a bump. I hate chasing this post deep in the thread!

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Creggor

Ok Thanks for the reply.. I am making a copy for my files..

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