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Whiskey Tree

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OscarV
I don't know, I didn't go there. Only my Wife, sister, brother-in-law and father went there.

Sorry 'bout that, I should pay more attention to you.

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Josh
Sorry 'bout that, I should pay more attention to you.

The last thing I need is more attention. Just encourages me.

But seriously folks, thanks for the praise. It's not perfect, but at least it's all in one place.

And thanks to Sky for asking the question in the first place.

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tanstaafl2

Always a very handy reference. Too bad the industry doesn't provide this up front like they should....

Does there need to be a new line for BT to accomodate the new CEHT Rye mashbill? Past reports seem to suggest it is an entirely new mashbill but I have no first hand knowledge either way.

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SMOWK
And thanks to Sky for asking the question in the first place.

I didn't realize what a great idea this was until you did all the legwork. This really is a great tool, and I'll bet more than one member carries this around in his wallet.

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shoshani
PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Regan & Regan's book came out around 1997 or so; it's been reissued but not revised, so any information they have for "Ancient Age Distillery" would pertain to mashbill #2, the lower corn higher rye Age International mashbill. None of the BT whiskeys (that Buffalo Trace owns and that are made to mashbill #1) were on the market yet at the time the Regans wrote their book. That being said, I can't imagine a mashbill that's higher in corn and lower in rye than 80/10/10! So that indeed cannot be correct.

EDIT: I misspoke badly. I meant the BT whiskeys were not on the market *by BT*. Sorry about that. Benchmark, Charter, and others that BT currently owns and produces were on the market at the time the Regans wrote, but were owned and produced by other distilleries.

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

The actual classic Stitzel-Weller mashbill was, if I recall correctly, 70/18/12, a mashbill from which its derivative Maker's Mark deviates only fractionally. Over time Diageo's predecessors lowered the amount of barley malt, at one time experimenting with enzymes. What today's Heaven Hill Bernheim mashbill is, I've no idea, but they would only have what they inherited, ie the mashbills in use by UDV at the time of the sale. (I would imagine this holds true with BT and the Weller line, although the Van Winkle influence has no doubt led to their wheated mashbills at the very least being restored to the S-W proportions, if not the S-W processes. BT cooks under pressure, for example, a process Pappy spoke out against openly.)

Edited by shoshani
Factual correction

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Josh
Regan & Regan's book came out around 1997 or so; it's been reissued but not revised, so any information they have for "Ancient Age Distillery" would pertain to mashbill #2, the lower corn higher rye Age International mashbill. None of the BT whiskeys (that Buffalo Trace owns and that are made to mashbill #1) were on the market yet at the time the Regans wrote their book. That being said, I can't imagine a mashbill that's higher in corn and lower in rye than 80/10/10! So that indeed cannot be correct.

EDIT: I misspoke badly. I meant the BT whiskeys were not on the market *by BT*. Sorry about that. Benchmark, Charter, and others that BT currently owns and produces were on the market at the time the Regans wrote, but were owned and produced by other distilleries.

Interesting! That was the missing piece of information for me, when ER, OC, and Bm (see what I did there?) moved to BT. So as you said, it seems that R & R were saying that the AA mashbill is the 80%. But...

The actual classic Stitzel-Weller mashbill was, if I recall correctly, 70/18/12, a mashbill from which its derivative Maker's Mark deviates only fractionally. Over time Diageo's predecessors lowered the amount of barley malt, at one time experimenting with enzymes. What today's Heaven Hill Bernheim mashbill is, I've no idea, but they would only have what they inherited, ie the mashbills in use by UDV at the time of the sale. (I would imagine this holds true with BT and the Weller line, although the Van Winkle influence has no doubt led to their wheated mashbills at the very least being restored to the S-W proportions, if not the S-W processes. BT cooks under pressure, for example, a process Pappy spoke out against openly.)

That and the first paragraph (and several other posts in this thread) really cast doubt in my mind about the accuracy of the mashbill info in that book. Did they get this information from Master Distillers? The whole thing seems like a bit of a mess to me now.

Anyway, great post. Thanks!

Edited by Josh

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HP12
Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 5.0

Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave

Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???

1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???

Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown

Rye 37/53/10? (speculation based on label of High West Double Rye!)- Fleischman's Rye

Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Indepnedent Stave

Beam Mashbill (76/13/10)- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's

Old Grandad Mashbill (63/27/10)- OGD, Basil Hayden

Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Ri¹, Knob Creek Rye

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage

Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve

Early Times (79/11/10)

Jack Daniels (80/8/12)

Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.

Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave

#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg

#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?

Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*

Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye, Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye* (?)

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave

Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char

Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.

All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)

OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch

OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel

All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here.

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave

Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.

Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.

Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original

Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)

Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*

Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?

Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the MGP website: http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave

Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave

Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon

Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye

Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:

Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?

Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.

Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (20 & 23 only?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18 et al

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig, Jefferson's and Masterson's Rye. Jefferson's may be switching to American-made rye.

*Brand(s) not wholly owned by the distiller.

**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

How much Stitzel-Weller is in Pappys 20 & 23, if any?

How much Medley and Cream of Kentucky Rye does VWFRR contain, and how much Buffalo Trace distillate?

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! Post it here so it can be corrected.

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jburlowski

I was at a Elijah Craig barrel selection last week where Rob Hutchins of Heaven Hill said emphatically that the HH rye bourbon mash bill was 78/11/11.

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squire

I would've sworn that Craig Beam said in an interview the standard HH mashbill was 75/13/12 but I don't suppose a few percentage points matter that much.

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SFS

Between those two, who would be in a better position to know? (I don't know what role Rob Hutchins occupies.)

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HighHorse
Between those two, who would be in a better position to know? (I don't know what role Rob Hutchins occupies.)

Rob was their Ambassador for the last several years. He was recently named regional mgr for KY/TN. He oversaw our barrel picks last year and authorized the dual barrel EC .. which was a first. He is a well-liked guy who will undoubtedly go far with this organization in the opinion of our local retailer.

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SFS

So who would be in a better position to know a mashbill, the master distiller, or a brand ambassador? It would seem to me, the "boots on the ground" would belong to the master distiller.

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squire

I just thought I was pointing out something that was fairly well known but it doesn't matter to me, I'll buy it however they make it.

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Josh

Good discussion!

I like Rob a lot, but I'm inclined to stick with what Craig said and what's currently on the tree. If someone can get somebody else who is in a position to know to confirm that 78% corn number, then I will change it.

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brettckeen

Where is Cabin Still fitting into this? Is it made by Heaven Hill or just owned by? I had some last night and it had those distinct nutty nodes of Old Crow/ Beam. I know in the past it was a wheater but I highly doubt it based on taste.

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squire

Cabin Still is owned and made by Heaven Hill. Originally a wheat recipe I suspect it's standard HH recipe now as it's marketed as a no frills value brand.

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Brisko

Cabin Still, must be a very popular brand in Minnesota based on the oceans of it flooding the bottom shelves. I would say it's definitely HH make-- it's very corny but at only 3 years old it's fairly harsh considering its low proof. I couldn't testify one way or the other to its mashbill, but it could be wheated still. It shares some in common with the current Old Fitz (but the overall flavor is more like the Gold BiB). Wheat or rye, I don't know, but it is definitely young. Love the label, though.

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Meruck

Where does one obtain one of these , "whiskey trees"?

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squire

Do a search here.

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TheNovaMan

There is a link to v5.2 at the bottom of page 18.

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higgins
Where does one obtain one of these , "whiskey trees"?

Squire and Pete are correct of course, but I got mine by planting magic whiskey beans.

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squire

I can smell the fertilizer you used Greg.

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brettckeen
It shares some in common with the current Old Fitz (but the overall flavor is more like the Gold BiB). Wheat or rye, I don't know, but it is definitely young. Love the label, though.

Maybe I need to grab a bottle of Old Fitz 80 and evan black, and find the sister.

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Josh
Maybe I need to grab a bottle of Old Fitz 80 and evan black, and find the sister.

As long as you're not finding my sister, that sounds like a good plan.

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