Current PVW Prices 2012/2013

[Trey Manthey]

Most "common people" buy PVW (or try to) because they perceive it as a luxury product that is "the best", not because they love whiskey. The value for them has little to do with what's in the bottle, but the feeling they get when they can demonstrate to themselves or others that they have something that is highly desired and in short supply. If they were familiar with a wider range of products, they would be able to form a clearer value judgement based on their tastes and the relative costs of commonly available products.

Now, for the people that feel comfortable dropping $1000+ on a bottle without knowing if they even like it, I can't say I feel sorry for them. They are investing in something they perceive as a luxury product, and I would hope that they at least fulfill that sensation. However, it would crisp my bananas to give one of those people a blind taste test with any number of sub $50 bottles and see if they pick out their trophy bottle as the winner.

[Old Dusty]

Trey to be honest, I would likely fail your test too. Doesn't lessen your point but only underscores how even many of us "aficionados" get sucked into the marketing/scarcity/pretty bottles vortex. Just look at the reactions on the bourbon porn threads when someone finds a white whale.

[P&MLiquorsEric]

The problem I think we are facing is with the easy access of the internet where many local liquor stores are searching on-line to see what some are listing with those ridiculous prices and they think with all the hype and people asking for it that people are actually paying those crazy prices. They are "comping" against list prices not sold prices. I had been an appraiser before and this is a very common mistake for some people.

So what would happen may be that these sits on the shelf for a long while and eventually but slowly it goes down. But the problem is that no one (likely) will be paying this >10X prices but then the common folks gets alarm and start paying for 2-3X prices and all of us suffer. I am mad at myself as well since even I recently pay for a PVW20 at $199 which is crazy when everything I had bunkered were half that.

That price is not ridiculous like those listed earlier.

We reward good/great customers with pvw at reasonable prices. We have only sold a couple bottles to the general public. It pisses off the "whale" hunters but bourbon people appreciate it.

I think too many liquor stores view their customers as PT Barnum when he said "there is a sucker born every minute".

[lrochau]

I'm glad an old guy named Biff Tannen convinced me to buy Pappy 3 or 4 years ago when it was cheap and plentiful because in the future is was going to get rediculous.....

[Trey Manthey]

Trey to be honest, I would likely fail your test too. Doesn't lessen your point but only underscores how even many of us "aficionados" get sucked into the marketing/scarcity/pretty bottles vortex. Just look at the reactions on the bourbon porn threads when someone finds a white whale.

That's exactly my point, and I celebrate your honesty. You don't even have to be doing this very long to learn that rarity and price are poor indicators of what you will enjoy. If BT accidentally destroyed all the barrels earmarked for VW one year, they could probably fill the bottles with anything and a small percentage of their consumer base would even notice. Most of the people who would notice probably wouldn't for a while because it will get buried in their "bunker" for years before they open it, if they open it at all.

[ChainWhip]

Most of the people who would notice probably wouldn't for a while because it will get buried in their "bunker" for years before they open it, if they open it at all.

That's a very interesting point... More reason to open them up and drink them ASAP!

[tigerlam92]

Most of the people who would notice probably wouldn't for a while because it will get buried in their "bunker" for years before they open it, if they open it at all.

Very true. . And I'll first thought my be our taste may have change giving it the benefit of the doubt.

[Kyjd75]

As much as I like PVW (and have a fair amount bunkered) I am thinking now might be the time to ease up on the Pappy pursuit and instead start some serious interaction with some Willett Family Estate single barrels.

[Old Dusty]

As much as I like PVW (and have a fair amount bunkered) I am thinking now might be the time to ease up on the Pappy pursuit and instead start some serious interaction with some Willett Family Estate single barrels.

They have my curiosity and no doubt they put out some really good bottles. But with the mystery origins and single barrel variances it is a real crapshoot. You can't try before you buy with those guys unless you visit the shop.

[ChicagoFlyer]

They have my curiosity and no doubt they put out some really good bottles. But with the mystery origins and single barrel variances it is a real crapshoot. You can't try before you buy with those guys unless you visit the shop.

Slightly off topic but I will say that I have had great success with the Willett FE bottles. My advice is to find a retailer whose pallet you trust and get their tasting notes. Based on the notes, find a bottle that seems interesting and have faith in the "picker". If you build a good relationship with the owner/retailer you can talk specifically about which ones they prefer and why. Old is not always better in the case of these bottles and its more about the tasting notes that fit your prefered profile. I have also found that doing a tasting night with just WFEs helps lower the cost of tasting multiple bottles, picking the one you prefer, then going back and securing a couple more.

[LostBottle]

I never knew those Van Winkle people even released a bourbon, I though they sold skinny jeans and Pabst.

Edited June 27, 2013 by LostBottle

[ChainWhip]

I never knew those Van Winkle people even released a bourbon, I though they sold skinny jeans and Pabst.

that's so last week... it's amish now - all the cool hipsters are rockin' it.

[LostBottle]

The latest gem from the K&L blog:

"When we get bottles like Pappy Van Winkle or Port Ellen 10th Edition, it's not the customer who's doing us the favor by purchasing them. It's us doing the customer the favor by allowing them to purchase."

Edited June 30, 2013 by LostBottle

[mbroo5880i]

The latest gem from the K&L blog:

"When we get bottles like Pappy Van Winkle or Port Ellen 10th Edition, it's not the customer who's doing us the favor by purchasing them. It's us doing the customer the favor by allowing them to purchase."

Of course. They are so altruistic.

[squire]

Oh, dear me, I suppose I should feel honored, and here I was thinking all they wanted was my money.

[DBM]

The latest gem from the K&L blog:

"When we get bottles like Pappy Van Winkle or Port Ellen 10th Edition, it's not the customer who's doing us the favor by purchasing them. It's us doing the customer the favor by allowing them to purchase."

I actually thought that was a very honest comment. The sentence quoted is a tiny fraction of the blog post, and really verbalizes an issue that most people don't care to, or want to, think about.

I see a lot of posts from people who reference their "whisky monger", "store manager" or "favorite bottle shop" and get preferential treatment because they are frequent flyers, or have a relationship with a business because of a mutual respect and appreciation for good whisky. It's easier when there is a personal relationship between the buyer and seller. Places like K&L, Total Wine and BevMo attract way more potential buyers of high end products and have to figure out how to allocate to their customers in a fair way, not unlike the distributors who allocated the product to them.

It's a tough problem with no easy solution. If I was an "outsider", I would prefer a retailer to advertise the crap out of their Pappy and BTAC arrivals (even if only a couple bottles) with the lottery idea because that treats the newbie or uneducated buyer equally. But if I was a long time customer and whisky enthusiast, I would prefer a retailer to keep their mouth shut and only notify the "regulars" about special releases, or simply say nothing and wait for people "in the know" to ask.

Neither is perfect, but they both have their merits. Regardless, the problem isn't going to go away for a long, long time. Even if PVW quadrupled their production and released a massively inferior product, it would take many years for the current demand to wain.

[portwood]

The latest gem from the K&L blog:

"When we get bottles like Pappy Van Winkle or Port Ellen 10th Edition, it's not the customer who's doing us the favor by purchasing them. It's us doing the customer the favor by allowing them to purchase."

Oh, dear me, I suppose I should feel honored, and here I was thinking all they wanted was my money.

I actually thought that was a very honest comment. The sentence quoted is a tiny fraction of the blog post, and really verbalizes an issue that most people don't care to, or want to, think about.

Problem with David (can't keep them straight) is same one faced by athletes - get criticized when they blurt out the truth AND when they spew off the usual cliches.

Despite what the David's want us to believe, the blog is a sales tool - nothing more, nothing less.

[LostBottle]

Despite what the David's want us to believe, the blog is a sales tool - nothing more, nothing less.

Truer words were never spoken.

[Trey Manthey]

Despite what the David's want us to believe, the blog is a sales tool - nothing more, nothing less.

[LostBottle]

Regarding LB's original quote: You took one sentence out of context from a rather lengthy post and sniped it. Not exactly a masterful criticism.

The sentence I took was, indeed, David's own words and was completely in context with the rest of that particular paragraph and in the spirit of that entire post. In your rush to post glib criticism, I am guessing you failed to see there was no running commentary by me and that I linked directly to the original post so you could actually read it in entirety.

Edited June 30, 2013 by LostBottle

[Trey Manthey]

Oh, my bad. The way you wrote it made me think you were trying to be snarky. Carry on.

With what I know about the system for how allocated products get distributed to retailers, it's seems like a favor when a store allows customer to purchase these gems. Their allocation is often based on how many of the standard range they've ordered. I've heard retailers tell me that over the course of a year they have to order a minimum of $40,000 worth of Buffalo Trace, Eagle Rare, Rain Vodka, etc and are required to carry other oddities like BTEC and the Single Oak project to even be considered a candidate for BTAC and PVW. Then, as a small store, they will only get a few bottles. Plus, it's a pain in the ass from customer service standpoint to deal with the whiskey nerds, flippers, and Bourdain fans. Keeping a waiting list. The buttheads who bring their wife and grandma in to buy more to get around the 1 bottle limit. Or in K&L's case, they set up a raffle and have to deal with THOUSANDS of people who complain about not getting some. All of this extra effort expended to sell a few lousy bottles, and then people complain when they raise the price to deal with all the extra work involved.

If I only drank mid-shelf I'd never notice or care. So yeah, if a retailer lets me know he's got one in stock and he's saving it for me, or allows me to buy one or two of these bottles (especially if it's close to MSRP), I am genuinely thankful and will say "Thank you." I see it from both sides, and what he's saying makes sense to me.

[P&MLiquorsEric]

Oh, my bad. The way you wrote it made me think you were trying to be snarky. Carry on.

With what I know about the system for how allocated products get distributed to retailers, it's seems like a favor when a store allows customer to purchase these gems. Their allocation is often based on how many of the standard range they've ordered. I've heard retailers tell me that over the course of a year they have to order a minimum of $40,000 worth of Buffalo Trace, Eagle Rare, Rain Vodka, etc and are required to carry other oddities like BTEC and the Single Oak project to even be considered a candidate for BTAC and PVW. Then, as a small store, they will only get a few bottles. Plus, it's a pain in the ass from customer service standpoint to deal with the whiskey nerds, flippers, and Bourdain fans. Keeping a waiting list. The buttheads who bring their wife and grandma in to buy more to get around the 1 bottle limit. Or in K&L's case, they set up a raffle and have to deal with THOUSANDS of people who complain about not getting some. All of this extra effort expended to sell a few lousy bottles, and then people complain when they raise the price to deal with all the extra work involved.

If I only drank mid-shelf I'd never notice or care. So yeah, if a retailer lets me know he's got one in stock and he's saving it for me, or allows me to buy one or two of these bottles (especially if it's close to MSRP), I am genuinely thankful and will say "Thank you." I see it from both sides, and what he's saying makes sense to me.

Well said. Recently, sazarac debuted "epic" vodka to compete with Pinnacle. Lots of crazy flavors and similar packaging. Not sure if it is nationwide yet but we were required to purchase it to receive our pvw allotment. It gets lost in the vodka aisle next to 100 other brands. The ones that sell are the cheapest and the names people see in advertisements, rap videos and other media placements. Epic has none of those traits. No advertising, middle range price (10-12 per 750) and zero "buzz" factor. Maybe that will change but I doubt it.

And around here, the only thing that will guarantee some of the BTAC is barrel selections and other sazarac product placements.

[Frodo]

The retailers seem to get an allocation based on the number of general products sold from the same company. Makes sense to me to do the same with the customers. Are you a regular who spends money on a monthly basis and helps them reach the sales necessary for the allocation levels of the HTF stuff? Or are you a BTAC/Pappy hunter who only drop by to look for the limited stuff? Which one of these customers helps keep the store a going concern?

[P&MLiquorsEric]

The retailers seem to get an allocation based on the number of general products sold from the same company. Makes sense to me to do the same with the customers. Are you a regular who spends money on a monthly basis and helps them reach the sales necessary for the allocation levels of the HTF stuff? Or are you a BTAC/Pappy hunter who only drop by to look for the limited stuff? Which one of these customers helps keep the store a going concern?

Great post. Similar to the David Driscoll blog about how pvw is the product where the retailer takes the role of the customer in choosing who gets it.

Only recently have we sold a van winkle product to the public. And that what because our distributor rep did us a "favor" with an extra bottle of lot b in return for a placement of an odd wine. We actually marked the lot b up from normal price and it took a few days before it was purchased. We still have not sold a single bottle of the new wine btw.

[sutton]

And that what because our distributor rep did us a "favor" with an extra bottle of lot b in return for a placement of an odd wine. We actually marked the lot b up from normal price and it took a few days before it was purchased. We still have not sold a single bottle of the new wine btw.

It makes sense to me to mark it up if you are going to get highjacked like that and get stuck with some low/no turn inventory that you'll have to blow out at some point ... or give them a lot b for cost if they'll take a case of the wine you got stuck with ...