Current PVW Prices 2012/2013

[smknjoe]

We're Bourbon Geeks, it's who we are, it's what we do.

[smknjoe]

Well at least we can choose the one we like best.

Edited August 13, 2013 by smknjoe

[mbroo5880i]

As of last year's interview Chuck had with Julian:

10yr-all BT

12yr-Bernheim and BT vatted together

15 yr- Bernheim, BT and SW vatted together

20yr & 23yr- BT and SW vatted together

That is a lot of different distillates used for what is considered the same product. I know the mashbill is the same but I would think there is the potential for a great amount of variable (e.g., storage location, etc.). I also realize that taste profile has to factor in as well but what makes the 10 year BT version or the 12 year vatted version all that much different than Wellers? How do their mashbills compare?

Edited for clarity - I mean what was once all SW distillate is now all BT distillate (e.g., the 10 year). There is absolutely no way it can be the same product. I know everyone in this forum knows this but the general consuming public doesn't. They are paying for a name that really belongs to a different product. I guess one question is the new product better than the old product?

Edited August 13, 2013 by mbroo5880i

[smknjoe]

what makes the 10 year BT version or the 12 year vatted version all that much different than Wellers? How do their mashbills compare?

Mashbills are the same. Age and barrel selection are the difference with the BT juice.

[oke&coke]

This has been discussed ad nauseam Joe. In the bigger scheme of things, does it really matter??:cool:

I am going to take a wild stab in the dark and say no.

[smknjoe]

Um, yeah. It matter's a lot. Half of what we do on this forum is try to figure out where NDP stuff comes from (KBD, Willett, BMH, Vintage, Hirsch, Red Hook Rye, Rathskeller Rye, Jefferson's, and PVW.) Not to mention the brands that have changed hands or locations or flavor profiles over the years (ODG, OT, OC, Old Fitz, Weller, Old Forester, Wild Turkey, Dant, etc.) There's a big difference between BT, Bernheim, and S-W juice. They are all good, but different. I don't see what's wrong with asking if anyone knows for sure what's in the current bottles since there is conflicting info out there.

What's wrong with you guys? :bigeyes:

[MauiSon]

I think that "figurin' out where it comes from" stuff is just a sideline to the "what's good and what's good value" questions.

[squire]

Well, a ten year old kid can take a sip of low alcohol wine and tell whether or not it's yucky . . . I find the figuring out stuff part far more interesting.

[smknjoe]

You don't think I might just want to know what I'm drinking, or that I might enjoy keeping up with the history of the brand(s)? You know, like an enthusiast would do?

[MauiSon]

Fair enough, but that 10-year-old has to buy it to try it and he may want to know what's not worth buying in the first place. I suspect we have more grizzled old codgers here than 10-year-olds like me, but we are getting the lion's share of value here - the thumb-twiddling show is just a cherry-on-top.

Edited August 13, 2013 by MauiSon

[squire]

Now lets be clear here, I'm not grizzled.

[smknjoe]

Fair enough, but that 10-year-old has to buy it to try it and he may want to know what's not worth buying in the first place. I suspect we have more grizzled old codgers here than 10-year-olds like me, but we are getting the lion's share of value here - the thumb-twiddling show is just a cherry-on-top.

So what? My questions have nothing to do with price and I have already tried, own, drink and paid less than $30 a bottle for bourbon from all three distilleries in question. They are all worth owning in my opinion.

[MauiSon]

Whoa, Joe! In a thread with this title, price is the question and if you've paid less than $30/bottle for Pappy, congratulations!

[tanstaafl2]

So what? My questions have nothing to do with price and I have already tried, own, drink and paid less than $30 a bottle for bourbon from all three distilleries in question. They are all worth owning in my opinion.

[smknjoe]

I think he just means product made at Stitzel-Weller (along with BT and Bernheim) and not necessarily "Pappy" as it is thought of today.

Or not!

Right.

This thread has veered of-topic several times but we are still talking about bourbon. A bourbon that has changed over the years, is currently changing and will definitely change in the future. This whole idea that only "newbs" are interested in PVW and mentioning PVW is taboo is silly. If you don't want to talk about it then don't post in this thread.

[kcgumbohead]

That is a lot of different distillates used for what is considered the same product. I know the mashbill is the same but I would think there is the potential for a great amount of variable (e.g., storage location, etc.). I also realize that taste profile has to factor in as well but what makes the 10 year BT version or the 12 year vatted version all that much different than Wellers? How do their mashbills compare?

Edited for clarity - I mean what was once all SW distillate is now all BT distillate (e.g., the 10 year). There is absolutely no way it can be the same product. I know everyone in this forum knows this but the general consuming public doesn't. They are paying for a name that really belongs to a different product. I guess one question is the new product better than the old product?

This is precisely why I said I am on the fence about pulling the trigger on a PVW15 should one fall to me. As far as I can tell, the whole PVW "thing" exists solely because of a finite amount of reportedly excellent whiskey from a now dormant distillery (I know it may be back on line but for the sake of the PVW line its extinct). IF this is 100% BT juice it may be good , it may be great but what it absolutely IS NOT is S-W. So one must decide if an extra aged BT wheater is worth a premium and how much vs. say Weller12 because that may be exactly what it is W12 +3 yrs. Now I like W12 and it sure as hell tastes different and much better IMO than the SR version so I may go for Weller 15, but there are strict limits to the hoop jumping I am willing to endure. Another possibility is that BT has legacy PVW from which to build a flavor profile that is distinctly different from a W15 perhaps by combining it with a percentage of SW as mentioned above, if so then info like that will play into my decision making. I think it will come down to how I am feeling on that day and how curious I wind up being. Once the SW stock was 100% gone it would have been or will be a nice time to reboot the line and price accordingly without the premium tagged on for something that if not SW is as stated earlier a different product than whats on the label.

[sutton]

This is precisely why I said I am on the fence about pulling the trigger on a PVW15 should one fall to me. As far as I can tell, the whole PVW "thing" exists solely because of a finite amount of reportedly excellent whiskey from a now dormant distillery (I know it may be back on line but for the sake of the PVW line its extinct). IF this is 100% BT juice it may be good , it may be great but what it absolutely IS NOT is S-W. So one must decide if an extra aged BT wheater is worth a premium and how much vs. say Weller12 because that may be exactly what it is W12 +3 yrs. Now I like W12 and it sure as hell tastes different and much better IMO than the SR version so I may go for Weller 15, but there are strict limits to the hoop jumping I am willing to endure. Another possibility is that BT has legacy PVW from which to build a flavor profile that is distinctly different from a W15 perhaps by combining it with a percentage of SW as mentioned above, if so then info like that will play into my decision making. I think it will come down to how I am feeling on that day and how curious I wind up being. Once the SW stock was 100% gone it would have been or will be a nice time to reboot the line and price accordingly without the premium tagged on for something that if not SW is as stated earlier a different product than whats on the label.

It really comes down to whether you need to scratch that SW itch ... or not. Jason Pyle, who's reviews I think are very good, found very little difference between earlier and current PVW; others do find a difference that matters to them. YMMV. So again, do you really care if it is a fabulous expression of wheated bourbon? Or are you only satisfied if it is SW?

I'd be surprised if those chasing these bottles and paying the ridiculous secondary market prices are even aware there is such a thing as SW.

[squire]

Good point Mark, I think most consumers are after Pappy for the same reason they want Mercedes, Rolex or Vuitton, it's the label.

[sutton]

I had to scratch that itch, and I'm glad I did. I understand the need to find out for yourself; I was undeterred - but the price for admission for me, while likely much higher than those who were in the know years ago, was still much lower than the secondary market insanity.

It is very good, but I paid "normal" prices for it - $65 or so for the 15, $100 for the 20, and $220 for the 23. From the bottling date codes, they all appeared to be SW from the information on the boards. They were all terrific to my uneducated palate, and I have no comparison to the current bottlings but if Jason says it is even close to indistinguishable, then BT and the Van Winkles are handling the transition well. If it is worth anything to you, unless you can find it at a bar to satisfy your curiosity, my advice would be not to pay the secondary market price to scratch that itch - I think you'd regret it.

Find another bourbon buddy who you can share pours with - you'll then know whether it is really worth it to you to run with the bulls.

[mosugoji64]

FWIW, the recent bottles of ORVW 10/107 I've had haven't wowed me like some older bottles. It's still very good but not as appealing when I can make a giant batch of SB blend that is equally good for the same price and a fraction of the effort. I love BT as much as anyone, but I'm not interested in jumping through hoops for bottles from a few BT honey barrels. Good private selections of OWA are much easier to find and just as enjoyable.

[ChainWhip]

FWIW, the recent bottles of ORVW 10/107 I've had haven't wowed me like some older bottles. It's still very good but not as appealing when I can make a giant batch of SB blend that is equally good for the same price and a fraction of the effort. I love BT as much as anyone, but I'm not interested in jumping through hoops for bottles from a few BT honey barrels. Good private selections of OWA are much easier to find and just as enjoyable.

Well said Kaiju Killer!

[smknjoe]

FWIW, the recent bottles of ORVW 10/107 I've had haven't wowed me like some older bottles. It's still very good but not as appealing when I can make a giant batch of SB blend that is equally good for the same price and a fraction of the effort. I love BT as much as anyone, but I'm not interested in jumping through hoops for bottles from a few BT honey barrels. Good private selections of OWA are much easier to find and just as enjoyable.

I completely agree.

[JVande]

FWIW, my quick thoughts on the current Fall 2012 PVW 15. Their have been multiple accounts of Joe Blow claiming a VW family member said "this and that" in regards to the juice each bottling contains. I personally tend to believe Chucks account from JVW that the Fall 2012 release of PVW 15 is a mix of 3 distilleries (BT, Bernheim, and S-W). I think once PVW 15 goes to 100% BT, it will be noticeably different just as the above posts comment on the ORVW 10/107. If I am wrong and it is already 100% BT then GREAT, because I am still sipping on a Fall 2012 PVW 15 and it's the best bourbon that I have ever consumed. Regardless of the contents, I still plan on forking over $88 any day of the week for a bottle.

[tigerlam92]

FWIW, my quick thoughts on the current Fall 2012 PVW 15. Their have been multiple accounts of Joe Blow claiming a VW family member said "this and that" in regards to the juice each bottling contains. I personally tend to believe Chucks account from JVW that the Fall 2012 release of PVW 15 is a mix of 3 distilleries (BT, Bernheim, and S-W). I think once PVW 15 goes to 100% BT, it will be noticeably different just as the above posts comment on the ORVW 10/107. If I am wrong and it is already 100% BT then GREAT, because I am still sipping on a Fall 2012 PVW 15 and it's the best bourbon that I have ever consumed. Regardless of the contents, I still plan on forking over $88 any day of the week for a bottle.

Mostly agreed with you but where can you find it for $88 now a days. I would still pay this even though it is higher than before but still very reasonable at this price.

Cheers

Hugh

[JVande]

Mostly agreed with you but where can you find it for $88 now a days. I would still pay this even though it is higher than before but still very reasonable at this price.

Cheers

Hugh

At a Big Box Retailer here in Texas. Been on "the list" for 6+ years now and get to choose 1 bottle per release. $88 is actually a recent price increase. Fall 2012, it was ONLY $55.