Pappy and the hunt...is it worth it?

[P&MLiquorsEric]

I would bet the relationship bw the van winkles and BT is a mutually beneficial one. BT supplies the juice and owns a small % of the brand name. Julian/ Preston are the figure heads and majority owners of the "brand". They taste product and jet setting around the world receiving a nice salary.

I wonder how long the deal is for and what will happen when they have to renegotiate it.

What happens if BT says "F off"? Does Pappy die but BT is able to put that juice towards other Super premium products without sharing the wealth?

[smknjoe]

PVW wouldn't go under just because of contract problems with BT. They would just source their whiskey under different terms or use a different source. Just like any other NDP. Their brand is their most important asset. Look at BMH.

[HP12]

Isn't the VW brand, recipe and time all embraced considerations in what is certainly a long term contract? Win win for both sides, BT and VW to continue the relationship...until potential greed enters the picture (but that never happens in business!).

[squire]

Yes, well Van Winkle didn't bring a recipe with them, they're not distillers, BT was making wheat recipe whisky long before the Van Winkles came on board. In fact, BT supplied wheat whisky under contract to Stitzel-Weller years ago.

Also, not everything SW made was golden, they made some exceptional whisky but a lot of ordinary stuff as well. The 80 proof Old Fitzgerald Prime SW made back in the late 70s was fairly bland stuff.

[LostBottle]

I hear that the entire 2014 Pappy Van Winkle line is going to be "Stitzel-Weller Finished"

[HP12]

Yes, well Van Winkle didn't bring a recipe with them, they're not distillers, BT was making wheat recipe whisky long before the Van Winkles came on board. In fact, BT supplied wheat whisky under contract to Stitzel-Weller years ago.

Also, not everything SW made was golden, they made some exceptional whisky but a lot of ordinary stuff as well. The 80 proof Old Fitzgerald Prime SW made back in the late 70s was fairly bland stuff.

[squire]

HP I believe they all (SW, BT, HH, Makers) use the same wheat recipe that's based on the original developed by the Stitzel family back in the 1880s. The difference is how they use it, grinding, cooking, mashing, yeast and of course the stills. Not the same of course but interesting to compare in a blind tasting.

[Gillman]

I hear that the entire 2014 Pappy Van Winkle line is going to be "Stitzel-Weller Finished"

Brilliant! Think of all the opportunities lost for those emptied barrels over the years, sold presumably to the Scots for their whisky or even the odd lot maybe to a beer maker to age an Imperial stout. Any Scots distiller or brewer who sought these out had his wits about him! It's not too late since the 23's and maybe even the last 20's or parts of them are being bottled from S-W barrels.

I'm serious (now, anyway), why not put one of the blended whiskies from BT in those barrels for a time and advertise it? Of course the Van Winkles would have to concur but they might see the wisdom of it as a way to extend the value of the name.

Gary

Edited November 10, 2013 by Gillman

[HP12]

HP I believe they all (SW, BT, HH, Makers) use the same wheat recipe that's based on the original developed by the Stitzel family back in the 1880s. The difference is how they use it, grinding, cooking, mashing, yeast and of course the stills. Not the same of course but interesting to compare in a blind tasting.

Yes, that explanation is familiar and it would indeed be an interesting blind tasting between those wheaters from different camps.

I visited PVW15 and PVW20 last night which I haven't done for months. Yep, it's worth the hunt. It's truly an elegant brand of whiskey.

[Gillman]

No question these whiskeys are prized and have numerous qualities. Every bourbon drinker should have the chance hopefully to try them, I did years back and am glad I did. The development of the super-aged category is largely down to the vision and ingenuity of the Van Winkle family and it carved out a deserved niche in the business and indeed bourbon history.

The actual value of them as bourbons, as comestible drinks, is for each to determine, as bourbon is a subjective matter par excellence. This is why blind tasting, not just for these but any bourbons, is an interesting exercise that can be a kind of "control" or "backstop" as it were to the untrammelled subjectivity of any of us, I fully included...

Different wheaters do indeed taste different because the countless variables in each distiller's hands receive different treatment. Different distilling plants, layouts, yeasts, distilling and entering proofs, barrel specs, and on and on.

I hope the original S-W plant, DSP 16, is brought back to life, it is in the hands of different owners now, but if they make a wheated bourbon in a traditional way and of course age it there, perhaps it would resemble those great original 6 and 7 year old Old Fitzgeralds. And after all those created the original glory of the Fitzgerald name, not the odd very aged bottling that was released, I believe at a maximum of 12 years old although the odd one may have gone a bit higher.

Still and at the end of the day, the 15, 20 and 23 year old bourbons sold today under the Pappy name, not all produce as we know from DSP 16, are fine whiskeys, as is the Van Winkle 12. They are fine whiskey anyone would be proud to own.

Gary

Edited November 10, 2013 by Gillman

[HP12]

No question these whiskeys are prized and have numerous qualities. Every bourbon drinker should have the chance hopefully to try them, I did years back and am glad I did. The development of the super-aged category is largely down to the vision and ingenuity of the Van Winkle family and it carved out a deserved niche in the business and indeed bourbon history.

The actual value of them as bourbons, as comestible drinks, is for each to determine, as bourbon is a subjective matter par excellence. This is why blind tasting, not just for these but any bourbons, is an interesting exercise that can be a kind of "control" or "backstop" as it were to the untrammelled subjectivity of any of us, I fully included...

Different wheaters do indeed taste different because the countless variables in each distiller's hands receive different treatment. Different distilling plants, layouts, yeasts, distilling and entering proofs, barrel specs, and on and on.

I hope the original S-W plant, DSP 16, is brought back to life, it is in the hands of different owners now, but if they make a wheated bourbon in a traditional way and of course age it there, perhaps it would resemble those great original 6 and 7 year old Old Fitzgeralds. And after all those created the original glory of the Fitzgerald name, not the odd very aged bottling that was released, I believe at a maximum of 12 years old although the odd one may have gone a bit higher.

Still and at the end of the day, the 15, 20 and 23 year old bourbons sold today under the Pappy name, not all produce as we know from DSP 16, are fine whiskeys, as is the Van Winkle 12. They are fine whiskey anyone would be proud to own.

Gary

Well said and good overview.

[squire]

Gary I think it would be kindred but not the same. Modernizing the plant calls for modern processes instead of atmospheric cooking, fresh propagated yeast, slow fermentation, lower wash proof (Pappy said corn is cheap), low proof off the still, low entry proof into the barrel, and, not insignificantly, the old still men who knew how to make whisky by touch, taste and smell rather than depend on computer controls.

Not to say they can't, Buffalo Trace's separate small experimental still comes to mind, but I'm afraid for the most part to get old fashioned hand made whisky I believe we have to look to the up and coming Micros.

[Gillman]

Well, not necessarily. Much of the original plant, the stills certainly, is still there. Diageo and predecessors have owned the plant since 1972. They have the records of how the bourbon was made which surely must pre-date their own ownership, they would have acquired this from the vending family in 1972. Ex-Diageo staffers surely are available to consult, if necessary. Possibly the Van Winkles could get involved again in some capacity, but even if not, I have little doubt that processes can be implemented to copy much of the circa-1972 methods, e.g., use of liquid yeast, atmospheric cooking as you say and whatever else was done. Cypress vessels might be problematic but I'd think there is a way around this too, i.e., to palliate the penury of this wood on the open market which is now a protected species I understand.

The question is, would they want to do this or even recreate a wheat-recipe bourbon? They have a whole different strategy in mind. This is a different world to the heyday of bonded and other 6-8 year Old Fitzgeralds. Many new kinds of products, especially flavoured or finished ones, are popular seemingly today.

But can they do it? Sure they can, IMO.

Gary

Edited November 10, 2013 by Gillman

[squire]

Gary I share your optimism over what could be done but don't think Diageo agrees with us. If they make anything at DSP 16 I expect it will be the high rye Bulleit mash bill.

[sutton]

I would guess that a major impediment would be bringing the plant to current OSHA/other regulatory standards. Not the least of which, at least from my own experience, would mean remediating any asbestos in the plant which was certainly quite ubiquitous at that time. Perhaps that capital investment is one of the items that has prevented Diageo or any former owner from taking what would seem to be an obvious step that would be enthusiastically embraced by the enthusiast market. For those truly into bourbon, who in their heart wouldn't pay a bit of a premium just to see this happen?

[TunnelTiger]

It will be interesting to see if Diageo would re-open the plant or build a new one if they know they have demand for the product and forecasting profits. In most cases, when it comes to manufacturing, it is less expensive to build a new operation due to state, local tax benefits and FED capital expenditure write offs. Not even taking into account the OSHA stds for bringing an old operation up to current stds.

[White Dog]

Yeah. Why would Diageo ever want to bother making wheated Bourbons?? It's not like MM or Van Winkle are popular.

[T Comp]

No question these whiskeys are prized and have numerous qualities. Every bourbon drinker should have the chance hopefully to try them, I did years back and am glad I did. The development of the super-aged category is largely down to the vision and ingenuity of the Van Winkle family and it carved out a deserved niche in the business and indeed bourbon history.

The actual value of them as bourbons, as comestible drinks, is for each to determine, as bourbon is a subjective matter par excellence. This is why blind tasting, not just for these but any bourbons, is an interesting exercise that can be a kind of "control" or "backstop" as it were to the untrammelled subjectivity of any of us, I fully included...

...

...

Still and at the end of the day, the 15, 20 and 23 year old bourbons sold today under the Pappy name, not all produce as we know from DSP 16, are fine whiskeys, as is the Van Winkle 12. They are fine whiskey anyone would be proud to own.

Gary

[squire]

Does anyone know when the Bulleit Bourbon Experience set up at DSP 16 is scheduled to open to the public?

[Gillman]

Squire, you may be right and I meant to say earlier that Diageo "may" have a wholly different strategy, the word may was omitted by mistake.

Thad, thanks for your kind remarks, now and earlier, but I value your and Squire's comments no less, it is the aggregated commentary here - indeed by all whomever they be - that makes this site worthwhile. I just wish we could hear from the Boss more often. When minded to write he puts Fowler to shame in fact, but too rare is the evidence of it.

Gary

[The Boozer]

Back to the question at hand - No.

[KCJason1]

PAPPY SUCKS!!! :puke:

[camduncan]

Brilliant! Think of all the opportunities lost for those emptied barrels over the years, sold presumably to the Scots for their whisky or even the odd lot maybe to a beer maker to age an Imperial stout. Any Scots distiller or brewer who sought these out had his wits about him! It's not too late since the 23's and maybe even the last 20's or parts of them are being bottled from S-W barrels.

I'm serious (now, anyway), why not put one of the blended whiskies from BT in those barrels for a time and advertise it? Of course the Van Winkles would have to concur but they might see the wisdom of it as a way to extend the value of the name.

Gary

I'll probably get skinned for the suggestion, but could they not also do something similar to what Beam do with Devils Cut?

[sutton]

I'll probably get skinned for the suggestion, but could they not also do something similar to what Beam do with Devils Cut?

I'll admit I had the same thought when I read Gary's post ...

[Fodowsky]

Not much challenge to the hunt. I bought 7 bottles in the last 3 days. Totally worth it to me.